The Commons Bar Mk XIII - MHoC Chat Thread

Announcements Posted on
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Thoughts aloud.

    I just don't like Smith. The fact he has so much in his favour and is still so personally unappealing is shocking to me. And in my heart of hearts I still can't forgive the attack on the party leadership in the aftermath of the EU referendum. I don't want to vote for the candidate supported by backstabbers and conspirators, thus vindicating their actions. And though I want a Labour government in 2020 it seems to me that Smith is only marginally more capable of achieving one - I suspect he'd crumble quickly once the spotlight was on him fully. I also suspect that the next leader of the Labour Party after Corbyn or Smith will be considerably more right-wing with this being more likely should Smith win and create a base of personal support. And then there's the risk that Smith will swiftly backtrack on his very left-wing current platform.

    With such similar policy platforms (except on foreign policy where Smith suggested he'd negotiate with ISIS...) it falls on who is better as an individual. And Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader of men. He strikes me as a foot-soldier who volunteered to carry the left-wing banner in the 2015 leadership race without any intention of winning. Who could expect a man who's been on the backbenches for decades to get everything right with the media and cabinet procedure? Especially given the hostility of those who were supposed to support him and the press. I admire his resilience against those odds. But when has Smith ever proved that he was a leader of men? What's to say he'll be better after he's committed several naive own goals during this campaign. Smith's lack of personal appeal makes him the 'Anyone But Corbyn' candidate and I don't want to vote for someone because they're not someone else, I want to vote for someone I believe in.

    I did believe in Jeremy Corbyn and am now not so sure. But I've never believed in Owen Smith and so I'm more inclined to give the former a second chance than throw in with the latter.



    *exasperated hitting of wall*
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    He's a Republican, he does not support the union, he would give the Falklands and Gibraltor away, he's somewhat sympathetic to Russia and would leave NATO (god forbid what he would do to defense spending). Those are just a start.

    The problem with the Corbyn types is not so much the threat they pose to capitalism (if the right cannot defend the market economy then they deserve to lose) but rather the radical price that you guys are willing to pay for it. A monarchy that goes back the better part of a thousand years, a union which stretches back centuries, overseas territories we fought a war for, an alliance which services our interests against the very threat that he shows sympathy for.

    This is not a man who wants to make people more prosperous, but a man who hates what his country is.
    Again, something being historic and/or having been difficult to attain does not offer any evidence whatsoever for it being worth retaining. The whole 'this is traditional' argument essentially boils down to 'I'm scared of change'. I do strongly support staying in NATO despite the unfortunate implications for defence spending, and I do think we should retain the Falklands and Gibraltar (though significant changes in sentiment from the populations of those countries may make it worth revising that).

    Also, none of the things you mentioned are particularly illustrative of what Britain is. The monarchy in particular is a pointless footnote which is completely irrelevant to any meaningful description of Britain.
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Whaffle!

    You guys have been telling us that the Tories will privatise the NHS for 6 years.. it's still here.
    Tories are launching attacks on the HOL?
    Unions are private institutions and still have significant legal protection.
    Yet they continue to increase PFI and give out private contracts. It is still here of course but behind the scenes it is becoming increasingly given over to private contractors.

    Recent reports show that the NHS is set for huge cuts and will not be able to be a 7 day NHS, as Hunt wants without serious investment.

    As for the HoL, how about the proposals to reduce its power just because it blocked tax credit cuts.

    Unions powers are being cut all the time, they are incredibly historical and cultural in nature.

    And how about the proposed acdemisation of our historic and cultural education system?

    How about the repeated cuts and threats to the BBC?


    You are disingenuous Rakas and you're engaging in the 'no true Scotsman' logical fallacy. Every time the Tories attack a historical and cultural institution, you claim it isn't one.



    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Thoughts aloud.

    I just don't like Smith. The fact he has so much in his favour and is still so personally unappealing is shocking to me. And in my heart of hearts I still can't forgive the attack on the party leadership in the aftermath of the EU referendum. I don't want to vote for the candidate supported by backstabbers and conspirators, thus vindicating their actions. And though I want a Labour government in 2020 it seems to me that Smith is only marginally more capable of achieving one - I suspect he'd crumble quickly once the spotlight was on him fully. I also suspect that the next leader of the Labour Party after Corbyn or Smith will be considerably more right-wing with this being more likely should Smith win and create a base of personal support. And then there's the risk that Smith will swiftly backtrack on his very left-wing current platform.

    With such similar policy platforms (except on foreign policy where Smith suggested he'd negotiate with ISIS...) it falls on who is better as an individual. And Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader of men. He strikes me as a foot-soldier who volunteered to carry the left-wing banner in the 2015 leadership race without any intention of winning. Who could expect a man who's been on the backbenches for decades to get everything right with the media and cabinet procedure? Especially given the hostility of those who were supposed to support him and the press. I admire his resilience against those odds. But when has Smith ever proved that he was a leader of men? What's to say he'll be better after he's committed several naive own goals during this campaign. Smith's lack of personal appeal makes him the 'Anyone But Corbyn' candidate and I don't want to vote for someone because they're not someone else, I want to vote for someone I believe in.

    I did believe in Jeremy Corbyn and am now not so sure. But I've never believed in Owen Smith and so I'm more inclined to give the former a second chance than throw in with the latter.



    *exasperated hitting of wall*
    I agree entirely. On balance though I went for Smith, just because I think he's marginally more likely to win an election.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Thoughts aloud.

    I just don't like Smith. The fact he has so much in his favour and is still so personally unappealing is shocking to me. And in my heart of hearts I still can't forgive the attack on the party leadership in the aftermath of the EU referendum. I don't want to vote for the candidate supported by backstabbers and conspirators, thus vindicating their actions. And though I want a Labour government in 2020 it seems to me that Smith is only marginally more capable of achieving one - I suspect he'd crumble quickly once the spotlight was on him fully. I also suspect that the next leader of the Labour Party after Corbyn or Smith will be considerably more right-wing with this being more likely should Smith win and create a base of personal support. And then there's the risk that Smith will swiftly backtrack on his very left-wing current platform.

    With such similar policy platforms (except on foreign policy where Smith suggested he'd negotiate with ISIS...) it falls on who is better as an individual. And Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader of men. He strikes me as a foot-soldier who volunteered to carry the left-wing banner in the 2015 leadership race without any intention of winning. Who could expect a man who's been on the backbenches for decades to get everything right with the media and cabinet procedure? Especially given the hostility of those who were supposed to support him and the press. I admire his resilience against those odds. But when has Smith ever proved that he was a leader of men? What's to say he'll be better after he's committed several naive own goals during this campaign. Smith's lack of personal appeal makes him the 'Anyone But Corbyn' candidate and I don't want to vote for someone because they're not someone else, I want to vote for someone I believe in.

    I did believe in Jeremy Corbyn and am now not so sure. But I've never believed in Owen Smith and so I'm more inclined to give the former a second chance than throw in with the latter.

    *exasperated hitting of wall*
    As a admitted Milifan the question to ask yourself having concluded that Corbyn is your man today is.. does Corbyn really care about winning though. As S pointed out (though that's another who was spouting Corbyn crap a year ago), Corbyn is prepared to lose the next 2 elections in the hope of a single pure government.

    As somebody who believes in prosperity for the masses over ideological pornography as their main political goal, are you really prepared to back the Corbyn sacrifice for a government which may never be pure or even manage to get elected.

    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Again, something being historic and/or having been difficult to attain does not offer any evidence whatsoever for it being worth retaining. The whole 'this is traditional' argument essentially boils down to 'I'm scared of change'. I do strongly support staying in NATO despite the unfortunate implications for defence spending, and I do think we should retain the Falklands and Gibraltar (though significant changes in sentiment from the populations of those countries may make it worth revising that).

    Also, none of the things you mentioned are particularly illustrative of what Britain is. The monarchy in particular is a pointless footnote which is completely irrelevant to any meaningful description of Britain.
    Truth be told i never considered myself very traditional until these things were threatened (same in Scotland, i initially just shrugged it off as 'i'll have dual citizenship, great') and individually there may even be merits to a degree of change however the fact that Corbyn is so virolently radical paints a very dark picture, a picture of man who does not just wish change but despises what this country has become.

    I may want a degree of change myself (i've long since accepted this country has flaws) but i despair at the notion that we could allow such a man to change the very foundation of this country. The monarchy alone does represent Britain, but it is part of a larger whole.
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Thoughts aloud.

    I just don't like Smith. The fact he has so much in his favour and is still so personally unappealing is shocking to me. And in my heart of hearts I still can't forgive the attack on the party leadership in the aftermath of the EU referendum. I don't want to vote for the candidate supported by backstabbers and conspirators, thus vindicating their actions. And though I want a Labour government in 2020 it seems to me that Smith is only marginally more capable of achieving one - I suspect he'd crumble quickly once the spotlight was on him fully. I also suspect that the next leader of the Labour Party after Corbyn or Smith will be considerably more right-wing with this being more likely should Smith win and create a base of personal support. And then there's the risk that Smith will swiftly backtrack on his very left-wing current platform.

    With such similar policy platforms (except on foreign policy where Smith suggested he'd negotiate with ISIS...) it falls on who is better as an individual. And Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader of men. He strikes me as a foot-soldier who volunteered to carry the left-wing banner in the 2015 leadership race without any intention of winning. Who could expect a man who's been on the backbenches for decades to get everything right with the media and cabinet procedure? Especially given the hostility of those who were supposed to support him and the press. I admire his resilience against those odds. But when has Smith ever proved that he was a leader of men? What's to say he'll be better after he's committed several naive own goals during this campaign. Smith's lack of personal appeal makes him the 'Anyone But Corbyn' candidate and I don't want to vote for someone because they're not someone else, I want to vote for someone I believe in.

    I did believe in Jeremy Corbyn and am now not so sure. But I've never believed in Owen Smith and so I'm more inclined to give the former a second chance than throw in with the latter.



    *exasperated hitting of wall*
    PRSOM x100. I feel exactly the same way on the issue.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    As a admitted Milifan the question to ask yourself having concluded that Corbyn is your man today is.. does Corbyn really care about winning though. As S pointed out (though that's another who was spouting Corbyn crap a year ago), Corbyn is prepared to lose the next 2 elections in the hope of a single pure government.

    As somebody who believes in prosperity for the masses over ideological pornography as their main political goal, are you really prepared to back the Corbyn sacrifice for a government which may never be pure or even manage to get elected.
    Smith will do more to win, I'll grant him that. He's more hungry for it shall we say.

    First time I've wanted to spoil my ballot.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I agree entirely. On balance though I went for Smith, just because I think he's marginally more likely to win an election.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    PRSOM x100. I feel exactly the same way on the issue.

    We, as Labour members and supporters deserve a better crop of candidates than what we've been presented with in my opinion. I'm beginning to think 'New Labour' created some kind of vacuum of talent.
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    We, as Labour members and supporters deserve a better crop of candidates than what we've been presented with in my opinion. I'm beginning to think 'New Labour' created some kind of vacuum of talent.
    Hear, hear. The options we've been provided with are quite frankly not good enough. My personal choice for leader would be Dan Jarvis and I really hope he is at some point.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    As much as it's interesting to see you guys supporting Smith one has to remember that you guys were spouting the Corbyn mantra only 6 months ago, even infecting normally sane people like Ray.

    The notion that any of you thought the people were crying out for an extremist who hates our historic cultural institutions proves why Labour probably don't deserve any respect and why you guys should still not be trusted.
    It shouldn't need saying that I absolutely believe in what Corbyn believes in and more. However, I am also a pragmatist on a practical level and I've realised that it's much better to have a chance of a shadow of what you believe in making it into the statute books, which is what you get with Smith, than to have no chance of any of what you believe in making it onto the statute books, which is, unfortunately, what you get with Corbyn. I severely overestimated Corbyn's capability to lead and unite the party - he's clearly doing his best and I don't have anything particularly against him, but he's just not right for the job. Even a few months ago, I was still thinking that Corbyn would just grow into the role and that the PLP would eventually resign themselves to uniting behind him (because even with the best leader in the world, there is no way a party as divided and hateful of itself as Labour has been will get anywhere close to government), but it's now obvious that I was wrong and that neither of those things is going to happen. I would love for there to be a popular, genuinely socialist hard-left Labour leader with a chance of winning an election, but that's a pipe dream. Smith isn't perfect by any means, but he's clearly a damn sight better in the long run than what we've got.
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    As a admitted Milifan the question to ask yourself having concluded that Corbyn is your man today is.. does Corbyn really care about winning though. As S pointed out (though that's another who was spouting Corbyn crap a year ago), Corbyn is prepared to lose the next 2 elections in the hope of a single pure government.

    As somebody who believes in prosperity for the masses over ideological pornography as their main political goal, are you really prepared to back the Corbyn sacrifice for a government which may never be pure or even manage to get elected.



    Truth be told i never considered myself very traditional until these things were threatened (same in Scotland, i initially just shrugged it off as 'i'll have dual citizenship, great') and individually there may even be merits to a degree of change however the fact that Corbyn is so virolently radical paints a very dark picture, a picture of man who does not just wish change but despises what this country has become.

    I may want a degree of change myself (i've long since accepted this country has flaws) but i despair at the notion that we could allow such a man to change the very foundation of this country. The monarchy alone does represent Britain, but it is part of a larger whole.
    He doesn't advocate to abolish the monarchy though.
    Besides, how would your life be different if we replaced the Monarchy with an elected head of state (ie a President who doesn't actually have any political power such as in Israel)?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aph)
    He's better than smith.
    If you don't want Labour to win the next GE then yes he is better.
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    He doesn't advocate to abolish the monarchy though.
    Besides, how would your life be different if we replaced the Monarchy with an elected head of state (ie a President who doesn't actually have any political power such as in Israel)?
    Only because he lacks the parliamentary support today, he's said he supports republicanism on Newsnight. Give Momentum a few years and that might change.

    My life would be unchanged however that would be a needless change.
    Online

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Only because he lacks the parliamentary support today, he's said he supports republicanism on Newsnight. Give Momentum a few years and that might change.

    My life would be unchanged however that would be a needless change.
    If it's a needless change that isn't going to affect you then why do you care?
    Also, you haven't responded to the tories attacks on the HoL, drawing up proposals to reduce its powers simply because they blocked tax credits.

    Or the constant attacks and cuts to the BBC, another historic and cultural institution.
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Snufkin)
    If you don't want Labour to win the next GE then yes he is better.
    Smith is an opportunistic snake. He's basically trying to be as much like corbyn as possible and isn't someone I'd like ruling labour.
    And labour should be standing up to teh media around corbyn and not letting the Rupert Murdochs et al. of this world determine their leader.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aph)
    Smith is an opportunistic snake. He's basically trying to be as much like corbyn as possible and isn't someone I'd like ruling labour.
    And labour should be standing up to teh media around corbyn and not letting the Rupert Murdochs et al. of this world determine their leader.
    Blah blah blah, none of this changes the fact that Corbyn can't win a GE. This comes down to a single question, do you want to win in 2020 or not? If you do, don't vote for Corbyn.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Snufkin)
    Blah blah blah, none of this changes the fact that Corbyn can't win a GE. This comes down to a single question, do you want to win in 2020 or not? If you do, don't vote for Corbyn.
    I don't think either Smith or Corbyn can win in 2020. In a way, I see the best Labour doing is holding onto their seats or slightly increasing the total (highly unlikely). That would be bad for Labour though in that it may consolidate Corbyn or Smith as leader. In reality, Labour will lose the next GE and the Conservatives will form a majority Government on the back of disillusionment with Labour and UKIP members returning to the fold.
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Snufkin)
    Blah blah blah, none of this changes the fact that Corbyn can't win a GE. This comes down to a single question, do you want to win in 2020 or not? If you do, don't vote for Corbyn.
    smith can't win either you know. Indeed corbyn has more shot of winning than smith IMO.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by toronto353)
    I don't think either Smith or Corbyn can win in 2020. In a way, I see the best Labour doing is holding onto their seats or slightly increasing the total (highly unlikely). That would be bad for Labour though in that it may consolidate Corbyn or Smith as leader. In reality, Labour will lose the next GE and the Conservatives will form a majority Government on the back of disillusionment with Labour and UKIP members returning to the fold.
    (Original post by Aph)
    smith can't win either you know. Indeed corbyn has more shot of winning than smith IMO.
    I don't know if Smith can win, but he at least has a chance - Jezza does not. Have you actually seen Corbyn's approval polls? They are truly abysmal. Smith might be boring and unoriginal, but he is not yet beyond hope.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Whaffle!

    You guys have been telling us that the Tories will privatise the NHS for 6 years.. it's still here.
    Tories are launching attacks on the HOL?
    Unions are private institutions and still have significant legal protection.
    Piece by piece its disappearing. Government underfunding means that we're now at the point where services are being closed, A+Es are shutting, the junior doctor contract will be altered, A+Es waiting times are rising and the government is delighted. Defund, claim it's broken then sell off. We'll see subsidies now I imagine for private firms, then the introduction of an insurance scheme. It's happening.
 
 
 
Write a reply… Reply
Submit reply

Register

Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post
  1. this can't be left blank
    that username has been taken, please choose another Forgotten your password?
  2. this can't be left blank
    this email is already registered. Forgotten your password?
  3. this can't be left blank

    6 characters or longer with both numbers and letters is safer

  4. this can't be left empty
    your full birthday is required
  1. Oops, you need to agree to our Ts&Cs to register
  2. Slide to join now Processing…

Updated: December 8, 2016
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Today on TSR
Poll
How are you feeling about doing A-levels?

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Quick reply
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.