Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
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Psyk
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#3801
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#3801
(Original post by Choo.choo)
How about the scrap of the very much unwanted 'Bedroom' Tax?
Three of this country’s main political parties – Labour, the SNP and the Scottish Greens – all agree that it should be scrapped.
Why is independence the only way to get rid of the Bedroom Tax? You could just vote Labour, they have a pretty good chance of winning the next general election.

Some Scottish nationalists only seem to have very short term memories. They appear to only remember the last 3 years. They seem to think the UK government always has been and always will be controlled by the Conservatives.
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Choo.choo
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#3802
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#3802
(Original post by Psyk)
Why is independence the only way to get rid of the Bedroom Tax? You could just vote Labour, they have a pretty good chance of winning the next general election.

Some Scottish nationalists only seem to have very short term memories. They appear to only remember the last 3 years. They seem to think the UK government always has been and always will be controlled by the Conservatives.
It does not matter which party is running this country (at Westminster, I mean).
The way the government at Westminster run things will never change.
The government of Scotland will be the government elected by Scotland. That is the power of independence - the people of Scotland will always get the government they vote for.
Independence is also not just about scrapping the bedroom tax, but it is an example of an unwanted policy imposed on the Scottish people.
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L i b
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#3803
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#3803
(Original post by Choo.choo)
It is a rational counter-argument in response to your comments.
It's an entirely stupid question to which the obvious answer is 'no'. If you think asking stupid questions is a counter-argument, then so be it.

The central objective of the SNP is to do right by the people of Scotland.

The SNP want to give the public what they want - and they have done.
No they haven't. They've ignored the settled will of the Scottish people and have driven huge resources into breaking up the country that the overwhelming majority of Scots want to be a part of.

Austerity? And you believe that people are happy about the deep cuts to public services? You remember the outrage when the Coalition told people that cuts would be implemented?
Austerity has not yet worked. We are still heavily in debt.
Er, we haven't had anything which could be remotely described as 'austerity' - in case you haven't noticed, every year the state spends billions more than it raises in taxation revenue.

However the deficit did need to be addressed and will be - both through sensible reductions in public spending and economic growth. Every mainstream political party in the UK has recognised that. The SNP, of course, hasn't - because they don't have to deal with it now, and suggesting policies for later would leave them with difficult choices to make.

It appears you don't just want to secede from Britain, but also to secede from reality.

(Original post by Choo.choo)
How about the scrap of the very much unwanted 'Bedroom' Tax?
Three of this country’s main political parties – Labour, the SNP and the Scottish Greens – all agree that it should be scrapped.
The SNP could effectively scrap it already in Scotland using current devolved powers. They've decided to only put £20m into it, which

Actually, the underoccupancy charge is relatively popular. It polls well, because it's sensible. And as for your figure - it's misleading. Over 20% of Scottish MPs support the policy.
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L i b
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#3804
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#3804
(Original post by Choo.choo)
It does not matter which party is running this country (at Westminster, I mean).
The way the government at Westminster run things will never change.
The worst sort of nationalist, anti-British hogwash.

In case you haven't lived through the last 30 years, Britain has changed extraordinarily in political terms. We've got devolution, a human rights act, European citizenship, a supreme court, fixed-term parliaments, a referendum on AV. The UK has been extraordinarily open to constitutional change in modern times.

The reason people don't like your ideas is not because they are inflexible, but because they are bad ideas.
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Choo.choo
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#3805
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#3805
(Original post by L i b)
The worst sort of nationalist, anti-British hogwash.

In case you haven't lived through the last 30 years, Britain has changed extraordinarily in political terms. We've got devolution, a human rights act, European citizenship, a supreme court, fixed-term parliaments, a referendum on AV. The UK has been extraordinarily open to constitutional change in modern times.

The reason people don't like your ideas is not because they are inflexible, but because they are bad ideas.
The Westminster are imposing policies that the Scottish people do not want.
Independence is about Scotland deciding its own future.
When I get time, I will (on this thread) show you a comparison of the SNP and the Westminster Government since 2007 to prove that it is better that the Scottish Government make decisions for Scotland rather than London.
Have you read YesScotland.net? That is the website presenting the case that an independent Scotland is the way forward for the people of Scotland.
It is fine that you disagree with my views.
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MatureStudent36
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#3806
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#3806
(Original post by Choo.choo)
If you want to continue to let the Westminster government ruin things for the Scottish people, and continue to be ruled by a government the Scottish people never vote for, then be my guest and vote 'No' next September. This opportunity to separate the Union will not come along again for a long time.
I just cannot see why you think that it is right for your country to remain part of a Union that will never make decisions that are right for the people of Scotland.
There are many, many changes that badly need to happen in Scotland, none of which will EVER happen under the ruling of a Westminster government.
From the picture I put up last night, it is clear that the Westminster government have squandered every last penny of the revenue from the North sea oil and gas.
There will be none left by the time we get another opportunity to rid Scotland of Westminster ruling.
I'd like to know how Westminster has ruined it for me. The only impact I can think of is a Scottish chancellor and later PM, backed by an overly Scottish represented cabinet making bad decisions, although judging by the support that the SNP politicians have those reckless decisions and criticisms that they weren't reckless enough. I see no evidence that we'd be in any better situation than we are now.

To say that Westminster never makes good decisions that benefit Scotland is generally misleading. The vast majority of the issues that people car about are devolved.

you're think that there area my, many changes that need to happen in Scotland, but so far the SNP have failed to explain how they'd pay for them. Those changes can happen, but so far the SnP have chosen not to make them.
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MatureStudent36
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#3807
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#3807
(Original post by Choo.choo)
You are very ill-informed.
The Labour MSP's in Scotland are in favour of independence for Scotland so they can get rid of Westminster, and prevent them imposing policies that people do not want.
YesScotland.net is your friend.
Read that website and you will change your vote to 'Yes'.
Care to name those labour MSPs with links that support your claim?
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Choo.choo
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#3808
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#3808
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I'd like to know how Westminster has ruined it for me. The only impact I can think of is a Scottish chancellor and later PM, backed by an overly Scottish represented cabinet making bad decisions, although judging by the support that the SNP politicians have those reckless decisions and criticisms that they weren't reckless enough. I see no evidence that we'd be in any better situation than we are now.
Seriously? No evidence? You really need to start reading things, talking to people, keeping up to date with current affairs. I really do not know where you are getting that from.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
To say that Westminster never makes good decisions that benefit Scotland is generally misleading. The vast majority of the issues that people car about are devolved.
The devolved powers that Scotland has do not enable the Scottish Government to make the decisions that people care most about.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I'd you're think that there area my, many changes that need to happen in Scotland, but so far the SNP have failed to explain how they'd pay for them. Those changes can happen, but so far the SnP have chosen not to make them.
We have a wealth of resources in Scotland that will enable us to pay our way

You know, I think it is becoming clear that nobody who posts on this thread wants Scotland to become independent. All the responses to my posts have been about the "benefits" of staying part of the United Kingdom.
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Choo.choo
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#3809
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#3809
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Care to name those labour MSPs with links that support your claim?
Read over the website, which will take a while, but read that and you will find out.
I am not here to be a disseminator for people. I do not have time to trawl the Internet for facts and statistics to back up my claims. Your job is to find out if my claims are true.
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Quady
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#3810
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#3810
(Original post by Choo.choo)
It does not matter which party is running this country (at Westminster, I mean).
The way the government at Westminster run things will never change.
The government of Scotland will be the government elected by Scotland. That is the power of independence - the people of Scotland will always get the government they vote for.
Independence is also not just about scrapping the bedroom tax, but it is an example of an unwanted policy imposed on the Scottish people.
So presumably you'd support self determination for the people of the Northern Isles if they so wished?

Since they don't even see themselves as Scottish...
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MatureStudent36
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#3811
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#3811
(Original post by Choo.choo)
The SNP are getting rid of Trident because it is what the people of Scotland want; not because of the jobs that will be lost, and the cost to move it.
A CND poll says that the people of Scotland want rid of trident. Another poll states that the majority of Scots want a replacement for trident.

The simple fact is that Trident doesn't even register as a concern for most people on a day to day basis. If I'm asked if I care about HIV rates in Africa I'll answer that info care. Will I do anything about it or does it impact me on a daily basis? The answer is no. I have more important things to worry about on a daily basis.
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MatureStudent36
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#3812
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#3812
(Original post by Choo.choo)
How about the scrap of the very much unwanted 'Bedroom' Tax?
Three of this country’s main political parties – Labour, the SNP and the Scottish Greens – all agree that it should be scrapped.
There was an opinion poll done some time ago about the reduction in housing benefits for under utilised property. It has broad support in Scotland.

Housing is a devolved issue. Nothing stopping the SNP building affordable smaller holes for these people. Once again their inaction is telling.
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Choo.choo
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#3813
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#3813
(Original post by Quady)
So presumably you'd support self determination for the people of the Northern Isles if they so wished?

Since they don't even see themselves as Scottish...
That is not relevant to the debate about independence, or this thread.
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Choo.choo
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#3814
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#3814
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
There was an opinion poll done some time ago about the reduction in housing benefits for under utilised property. It has broad support in Scotland.

Housing is a devolved issue. Nothing stopping the SNP building affordable smaller holes for these people. Once again their inaction is telling.
MSP's in Scotland overwhelmingly rejected the bedroom tax, yet Westminster still imposed it.
Do you really think that if the Scottish Government, which at the moment is SNP, would not get rid of the bedroom tax if they could?
That is why they are telling people to vote 'Yes' so they can get rid of it.
You need to read up on the devolved powers for Scotland.
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MatureStudent36
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#3815
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#3815
(Original post by Choo.choo)
That is not relevant to the debate about independence, or this thread.
I think its very relevant. You're argument consist of one group of people have the right to one thing, but a smaller grouping doesn't.
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Choo.choo
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#3816
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#3816
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
A CND poll says that the people of Scotland want rid of trident. Another poll states that the majority of Scots want a replacement for trident.

The simple fact is that Trident doesn't even register as a concern for most people on a day to day basis. If I'm asked if I care about HIV rates in Africa I'll answer that info care. Will I do anything about it or does it impact me on a daily basis? The answer is no. I have more important things to worry about on a daily basis.
You are right that the debate is not about Trident.
It is about the Scottish people deciding the future of Scotland.
Every single post I have read on the Facebook page for independence support Scotland getting independence.
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Choo.choo
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#3817
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#3817
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I think its very relevant. You're argument consist of one group of people have the right to one thing, but a smaller grouping doesn't.
It's the whole of Scotland to get independence; not just the Northern Isles.
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MatureStudent36
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#3818
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#3818
(Original post by Choo.choo)
MSP's in Scotland overwhelmingly rejected the bedroom tax, yet Westminster still imposed it.
Do you really think that if the Scottish Government, which at the moment is SNP, would not get rid of the bedroom tax if they could?
That is why they are telling people to vote 'Yes' so they can get rid of it.
You need to read up on the devolved powers for Scotland.
The people of Scotland rejected an SNP government in 2011. More of us voted against them than for them.

Once again, housing is a devolved issue that the SNP have chosen not to use on this issue.
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MatureStudent36
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#3819
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#3819
(Original post by Choo.choo)
It's the whole of Scotland to get independence; not just the Northern Isles.
So you advocate the ignoring of a grouping of people with their own distinct language and culture?
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Quady
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#3820
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#3820
(Original post by Choo.choo)
That is not relevant to the debate about independence, or this thread.
Why?

Surely if Scotland needs independence because UK policies don't work for Scotland even under devolution, and Scotland should be 'proud' and stand alone, then Scotland should allow the Northern Isles it traded with Norway a vote on their democracy...
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