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    On the human shield thing, yes there is no evidence that Hamas has force people into the line of fire directly, but they do launch rockets and what not from heavily civilized areas. If they really cared for the Palestine people they would not do this, it is just inviting more innocent deaths to happen.
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    (Original post by Abstraction)
    I'm wary of Wikipedia as a source, do you have other sources of recent events like these? Any proof of human shields? Israel's Hasbara (propaganda team) has been worming its way into public sites, so there's no reason to absolutely believe pages which they can edit, and have a good incentive to edit.

    If Hamas have really been doing most of that, well I certainly don't condone it. Hamas is indeed far from perfect, but we need to look at the bigger source of evil here. Racist terrorism against a group of people is going to stir up frustration, anger, heartbreak and feelings among victims that they have nothing to lose. It would be wrong to believe lots of people want to kill themselves just for fun. Israel is 100 times the terrorist organisation Hamas is, so they need to look at their own backyard first and fix up the mess they've created.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    So you refuse to accept the countless suicide bombings in Israel which Hamas and other Palestinian Terrorist organisations have claimed responsibility of because the page that says they happened is Wikipedia?

    My argument is that the only reason countless Israeli innocents have not died in this conflict is down to the superior defence systems. Yet people still throw up figures of casualties and use it as an argument against Israel, its nonsense, people are forgetting the history or terror and offensives that Israel have faced and are focussing only on the most recent years.

    You cannot find proof of Hamas using civilians as human shields, all we have is firing positions for Rockets, however there arent many areas in Gaza that arent populated. Thus Hamas is most likely to be firing rockets from areas populated by civilians, as all areas that arent are probably being aimed at by Israeli forces. It's the only method of attack they have, its a lose lose situation for them, they continue to do it, it is their fault.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Eh no. Peace talks broke down, then three israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered, believed to be by two Hamas operatives - it all escalated from there. So, Hamas started it. Or if you prefer to look at it from Operation Protective Edge, that was in response to increased rocket fire from Hamas.
    The Israelis have admitted that the teens were not killed by anyone working under the command of the Hamas leadership and those who did the deed were most likely working as a lone cell.

    A more detailed viewpoint:

    Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."


    Try not being a mug in the future. It's embarassing
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    [b]Hamas rocket strike on Israel. And some people think Israel should accept this day in and day out without retaliation[b]

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    Terrorist rocket strike in Israel by Hamas

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    (Original post by garfeeled)
    the french ban on face covering is neither targeted at women or muslims. It effects all face coverings (bar some required exceptions such as motorcycle helmets).

    In addition for you to claim illegality one must bring up actual evidence. Just an FYI
    That's only what you would like to lull yourself into comfortably believing. The ban directly affects Muslim women's right and freedom to practice their religion freely, and the French authorities were certainly under no illusions about their ban's direct relation to Islam. Also notable is the fact that the ban was brought about during Sarkozy's time, a veritable Islamophobe. He also launched frequent tirades against the burqa in French media outlets whilst the bill for banning face coverings was being put forward and going through, in case you did not know. Certainly the French authorities were under no illusions about their ban's direct relation to Islam.
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    The Israelis have admitted that the teens were not killed by anyone working under the command of the Hamas leadership and those who did the deed were most likely working as a lone cell.

    A more detailed viewpoint:

    Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."


    Try not being a mug in the future. It's embarassing
    Wrong, the kidnappers were Hamas activists: http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/26/world/...enagers-hamas/

    and Hamas launched the first wave of rocket attacks, which Israel swore retaliation to: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/wo...gaza.html?_r=1
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Eh no. Peace talks broke down, then three israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered, believed to be by two Hamas operatives - it all escalated from there. So, Hamas started it. Or if you prefer to look at it from Operation Protective Edge, that was in response to increased rocket fire from Hamas.
    Increased rocket fire from Hamas was the handiwork of Israeli forces who earlier in the year arrested, abused and even shot dead Palestinian protesters, in addition to which they arrested and killed many hundreds of Palestinians whilst on their feigned search for those three Israeli settlers who they alleged were kidnapped by Hamas, but whom Hamas denied ever having kidnapped, and whom Israel has also finally halfheartedly admitted that Hamas had never kidnapped.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Wrong, the kidnappers were Hamas activists: http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/26/world/...enagers-hamas/

    and Hamas launched the first wave of rocket attacks, which Israel swore retaliation to: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/wo...gaza.html?_r=1
    Your first source is outdated. the Israelis admitted later that a lone cell was involved.

    The second source is also ****. It shows that Hamas fired rockets after Operation Brother's Keeper where the Israelis arrested in which over 500 Palestinians were arrested without proof and almost a dozen were killed. The first Hamas rockets struck Israel on Monday and were in response to Israeli airstrikes earlier that day.

    Ta daaaaaa :dunce:
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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    That's only what you would like to lull yourself into comfortably believing. The ban directly affects Muslim women's right and freedom to practice their religion freely, and the French authorities were certainly under no illusions about their ban's direct relation to Islam. Also notable is the fact that the ban was brought about during Sarkozy's time, a veritable Islamophobe. He also launched frequent tirades against the burqa in French media outlets whilst the bill for banning face coverings was being put forward and going through, in case you did not know. Certainly the French authorities were under no illusions about their ban's direct relation to Islam.
    It may effect there ability to wear the burka. But it does not stop them wearing a hijab. It is not solely targeted at Muslims. Its a ban on all face coverings not just burka. Regardless of this are you going to provided legal evidence of the illegal actions of Israel.
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Your first source is outdated. the Israelis admitted later that a lone cell was involved.

    The second source is also ****. It shows that Hamas fired rockets after Operation Brother's Keeper where the Israelis arrested in which over 500 Palestinians were arrested without proof and almost a dozen were killed. The first Hamas rockets struck Israel on Monday and were in response to Israeli airstrikes earlier that day.

    Ta daaaaaa :dunce:
    No they didn't - that claim comes from one buzzfeed writer on twitter whose comments were never substantiated: http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/1806...p-its-teens-no

    Err, no again - it gave a timeline of the escalation: Israeli teenagers kidnap > revenge kidnap of palestinian teenager > Hamas digging tunnels to attack deep in Israel > Israel attempts to shut this down > Hamas fires rockets > Israel retaliates.
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    (Original post by Apocrypha)
    So you refuse to accept the countless suicide bombings in Israel which Hamas and other Palestinian Terrorist organisations have claimed responsibility of because the page that says they happened is Wikipedia?

    My argument is that the only reason countless Israeli innocents have not died in this conflict is down to the superior defence systems. Yet people still throw up figures of casualties and use it as an argument against Israel, its nonsense, people are forgetting the history or terror and offensives that Israel have faced and are focussing only on the most recent years.

    You cannot find proof of Hamas using civilians as human shields, all we have is firing positions for Rockets, however there arent many areas in Gaza that arent populated. Thus Hamas is most likely to be firing rockets from areas populated by civilians, as all areas that arent are probably being aimed at by Israeli forces. It's the only method of attack they have, its a lose lose situation for them, they continue to do it, it is their fault.
    I never said I absolutely refuse it, just that I'm wary of the information so I'd like a more reliable source. But alright, I believe it. I don't see how the page even helps your case very much; according to it the last incident was in 2008. Doesn't justify cold blooded mass murder 6 years later. In fact, the information works against you - even totalling up every casualty since 1989 brings a total of 804, which is less than half the number Israel have murdered in the last 24 days. Wow.

    People use figures of casualties against Israel because they are clearly the aggressors here; attacks by the Palestinians are largely reactionary - why is this so hard for you to understand? However you weigh it up, Israel are the main killers, and they have the power to create a two-state solution. They can end this bloodshed, but are too fixated on their dreams of a Jewish utopia to do so. If you want less recent events, how about Operation Cast Lead in 2009? 1455 Palestinians killed, 5000 injured. To say Israel are the nicer guys is to be completely detached from reality.

    Violence committed against another stirs up a desire for revenge, you cannot blame Palestine for hitting back. It is better to fight than accept violent tyranny lying down. Israel will not stop and hand over everything they've stolen if Hamas stops - to think so is purely wishful thinking. You want the Palestinians to be passive and subservient amidst their suffering, and that is just way too much to ask. Israel can stop this destruction, so it is sheer wilful ignorance to be blaming it all on Hamas.



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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    No they didn't - that claim comes from one buzzfeed writer on twitter whose comments were never substantiated: http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/1806...p-its-teens-no

    Err, no again - it gave a timeline of the escalation: Israeli teenagers kidnap > revenge kidnap of palestinian teenager > Hamas digging tunnels to attack deep in Israel > Israel attempts to shut this down > Hamas fires rockets > Israel retaliates.
    As to who fired first, Brother's Keeper and all the shabang, the facts are widely available all over the net for those want to look them up.

    And no the claim came from BBC News Correspondent Jon Donnison.

    How much are Mossad paying nowadays by the way?
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    As to who fired first, Brother's Keeper and all the shabang, the facts are widely available all over the net for those want to look them up.

    And no the claim came from BBC News Correspondent Jon Donnison.

    How much are Mossad paying nowadays by the way?
    Indeed, and they show Hamas fired first:http://www.ibtimes.com/timeline-even...lation-1636264

    12th June - Israelis kidnapped
    13th June - Palestinians arrested
    15th June - Crackdown on Hamas operatives
    16th June - Hamas starts rocket fire...

    However their alleged source saying it was a lone cell has always maintained it was Hamas operatives. Regardless, you're parroting an unsubstantiated rumour denied by the very people you claim admitted it.
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    (Original post by Abstraction)
    I never said I absolutely refuse it, just that I'm wary of the information so I'd like a more reliable source. But alright, I believe it. I don't see how the page even helps your case very much; according to it the last incident was in 2008. Doesn't justify cold blooded mass murder 6 years later. In fact, the information works against you - even totalling up every casualty since 1989 brings a total of 804, which is less than half the number Israel have murdered in the last 24 days. If you call the Palestinians' murder count 'countless', I wonder what you call Israel's.

    People use figures of casualties against Israel because they are clearly the aggressors here; attacks by the Palestinians are largely reactionary - why is this so hard for you to understand? However you weigh it up, Israel are the main killers, and they have the power to create a two-state solution. They can end this bloodshed, but are too fixated on their dreams of a Jewish utopia to do so. If you want less recent events, how about Operation Cast Lead in 2009? 1455 Palestinians killed, 5000 injured. To say Israel are the nicer guys is to be completely detached from reality.

    Violence committed against another stirs up a desire for revenge, you cannot blame Palestine for hitting back. It is better to fight than accept violent tyranny lying down. Israel will not stop and hand over everything they've stolen if Hamas does - to think so is purely wishful thinking. You want the Palestinians to be passive and subservient amidst their suffering, and that is just way too much to ask. Israel can stop this destruction, so it is sheer wilful ignorance to be blaming it all on Hamas.



    Posted from TSR Mobile
    When you tell me that Hamas' attacks and suicide bombings are justified as reactionary, i really have nothing more to say. One must understand that they paint an image of Israel as an aggressive landgrabber, but miss the fact that israel has repelled invasions of its land countless times.

    The oppression of Palestinians today is 100% a consequence of consistent aggression towards Israel since its creation. Israel is not a country that will repel an attack and then not take an advantage. Palestinians and the surrounding countries played the game wrong. They gave Israel the excuse to expand. Simple.

    After multiple wars and attempted invasions, what the Palestinians and countries surrounding them have done on countless times is show Israel that they are weak and feeble. Something a country like Israel will take advantage of. Electing terrorist organisations is not a means to success. It is the opposite. The argument here is that people expect Israel as supposedly a western nation in the middle east to be a civilized and rule abiding country (in terms of international law), which they arent, but you have to look at history to realise the reason why.
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    Hamas Rocket fire caught on camera by Al Jazeera

    Just "fireworks"
    :rolleyes:

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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Indeed, and they show Hamas fired first:http://www.ibtimes.com/timeline-even...lation-1636264

    12th June - Israelis kidnapped
    13th June - Palestinians arrested
    15th June - Crackdown on Hamas operatives
    16th June - Hamas starts rocket fire...

    However their alleged source saying it was a lone cell has always maintained it was Hamas operatives. Regardless, you're parroting an unsubstantiated rumour denied by the very people you claim admitted it.
    Everyone is absolutely free to check for themselves what happened.

    I find it amazing how so many non religious people on here are defending a state which bases its justification, ethnic cleansing and apartheid on a 3,000 year old fairytale.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Hamas Rocket fire caught on camera by Al Jazeera

    Just "fireworks"
    :rolleyes:

    The fact the press were there suggests its a civilian area.
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    (Original post by Algorithm69)
    Except that's not what I said at all. Try again.
    You connoted that posting all the IDF atrocities
    one must either be a neo nazi or an anti semite.
    ie if I post or discuss IDF atrocities I must be an anti semite.
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Everyone is absolutely free to check for themselves what happened.

    I find it amazing how so many non religious people on here are defending a state which bases its justification, ethnic cleansing and apartheid on a 3,000 year old fairytale.
    As opposed to supporting an organisation that bases it's desire to commit genocide on a 1300 year old set of beliefs that are are no more valid than the jewish faith?
 
 
 
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