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    (Original post by Algorithm69)
    I'll comment on this waffle later.
    Please do.
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    (Original post by Apocrypha)
    The fact the press were there suggests its a civilian area.
    Jeremy Bowen - "I have not seen Hamas fire from civilian areas"

    Or something to that effect.

    Absolute propagandist scumbag
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    Never heard the man speak such sense in his life
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    More in link

    http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Prote...shields-369619




    Gee, I wonder why we're getting one-sided reports :rolleyes:
    Any point in reading this post was defeated when I read 'Jpost'. Let's just post articles from Al-Qassam Brigades' website LOOL


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    (Original post by Apocrypha)
    The fact the press were there suggests its a civilian area.
    Not necessarily - the press can and will report from war-zones. They avoid it if they can for obvious reasons (safety of the journalists) but if the story requires they enter a battle-zone, they will.
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    (Original post by Abstraction)
    Stop giving me fake or exaggerated quotes about Hamas 'wanting Israel's extinction'. This is a common thing you pro-Israelis do, and yet there have been plenty of ominous promises by Netanyahu to destroy the subhuman Palestinians.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3629/hamas-terrorists That's from last year. There are many, many, many, many, many other places you can find Hamas being quoted as saying it wants to eradicate Israel. Hamas has said it so many times that I find it hilarious you think it's 'fake or exaggerated'.




    (Original post by Abstraction)
    Like I've said, wishing for an enemy, who's brutalising you for no good reason, to vanish off the face of the earth isn't unjustified, is it?

    Sorry. There are 2 utterly ridiculous things you just said:


    1.) Israel is 'brutalising Palestine for no good reason'
    2.) Wishing for Israel to 'vanish off the face of the earth is justified'


    If you think it's all 'for no reason' then you clearly know nothing about the conflict, that (as I'm sure you're aware but choosing to ignore for the sake of your argument) Palestine started. You're wrong on so many levels that it would take an essay to explain why it's all 'for good reason'.


    Would you care to explain why wishing for Israel to vanish off the face of the earth is justified? I struggle to understand how Israel defending itself from utter destruction deems the country's extermination 'justifiable'.




    (Original post by Abstraction)
    Rubbish, all of Israel's so-called ceasefires and "attempts to coexist (lol)" have collapsed because the conditions were simply not good enough. Exactly how do they want the land to be divided up? How come there have been no promises to cease the occupation of Gaza, remove the ridiculous blockades, and return land and water to the people who rightfully own it? Those are the minimum and just conditions that should be included in any truce, and Hamas would be foolish to accept less. There is and always has been a simple two-state solution to this conflict, but people like you, Israel and the US can only speak in the language of disproportionate violence.

    Do you even know why the blockades are there in the first place? Let me guess what you think, 'because the Israelis are inhumane beasts who want to oppress the Palestinians as much as possible'? No. Unfortunately, if Israel remove the blockades, it is extremely likely (ie. definite) that Hamas would use this opportunity to obtain more weapons and to increase the number of rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza.


    Funny you should mention the 'two-state solution'. Let me remind you why it wouldn't work:


    Your beloved terrorist organisation does not want two states. They want one. Palestine. Israel is to be destroyed, remember?


    (Original post by Abstraction)
    I have the "audacity" to say that simply because it's true. Would you call killing 1300+ civilians in 24 days being merciful? Your jingoism has completely warped your sense of reality.

    No, I wouldn't call it merciful. Unfortunately, however, Hamas appears to be at best indifferent to the fact that, by firing rockets from heavily civilian areas, it knowingly invites or even desires Israeli strikes that will kill civilians. (Hamas is frequently accused of using civilians as human shields for this reason.)


    A little more on the 'human shield situation':




    Does Hamas really use human shields? Not legally speaking, but the effect of their tactics is similar


    The truth to this is not simple; while Hamas does not appear to force civilians into the line of fire, which is the legal definition of human shields, the group is extremely cavalier about indirectly causing Palestinian casualties by firing from civilian neighborhoods and storing rockets in civilian buildings. This is a real, serious form of culpability.


    "Palestinian armed groups have stored munitions in and fired indiscriminate rockets from residential areas in the Gaza Strip," an Amnesty report noted recently. The groups have also "reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes" after Israel had warned it would attack the area, all of which have the effect of putting Palestinians at risk in the fighting.


    An important secondary question, though, is whether they do this out of a deliberate desire to hide behind (or even provoke the bombing of) Palestinian civilians, or out of simple disregard for putting those civilians at risk.


    Some observers argue that Hamas is more than just indifferent to civilian deaths, and may be doing something even worse than hiding behind them: that the group actively wants Israel to kill Palestinian civilians so that Hamas can rally world opinion against Israel.

    Some of these observers have met and interviewed Hamas leaders, some have not.


    The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg, who has interviewed Hamas members, wrote that the group "is trying to get Israel to kill as many Palestinians as possible" because "dead Palestinians represent a crucial propaganda victory for the nihilists of Hamas." While that is not exactly akin to using unwilling human shields, if true, the effect would be in many ways similar.


    The Globe and Mail's Margaret Wente wrote, "Hamas openly encourages civilians to act as human shields," pointing out that a Hamas spokesman had encouraged Gazans to "defend their rights and their homes with their bare chests and their blood." While again this is not actually the same as human shields, it is another form of culpability.


    While it is within the realm of possibility that Hamas at some level desires the deaths of Palestinian civilians, proving that the group is acting on this requires a lot of extrapolation and supposition about the internal motivations of Hamas officials. Speaking for myself, I will not pretend to possess special insight into the minds of Hamas leaders.


    What can be proven is that Hamas makes tactical choices, particularly firing from dense civilian areas, that increase the odds that Palestinian civilians will be killed. Hamas could save lives by firing rockets from less crowded areas of Gaza City or storing those rockets in a building that is not a school. But it doesn't. Even if this is "only" coldblooded indifference, which is the most generous possible reading, this is surely a form of culpability.
    I suggest you take some time now to work out why it is so many Palestinians are dying.

    It will be interesting to see how you reply to this. Honestly, the only reason I can see you being pro-Hamas (thus pro-terrorism) is that you lack sufficient knowledge on the situation to form a rational opinion. I strongly suggest you research more into the conflict rather than reading/watching/hearing the pro-Palestinian bull**** that the BBC feeds you.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    no
    So you are denying that there was mass illegal immigration and terrorism prior to the creation of the State of Israel?

    i consider people applying the term 'illegal' to whatever they personally wish doesnt make it so.
    So there was no mass illegal immigration prior to the creation of the State of Israel?

    i think that was your assertion wasnt it?
    The whole point of using BOLD is that it highlights the relevant part of the post. You don't post the whole sentence in bold and leave the "most important bit" unbolded. It defeats the objective of using Bold in the first place.

    Anyway, I'm just asking you to clarify whether, prior to the creation of the State of Israel, there was:

    a) Mass illegal immigration,
    b) Terrorist acts.

    Could you clarify and confirm for us if (a) and (b) are either true or false in relation to the question above?

    i didnt , i posted it and asked you what you thought we should do about islamists causing the same problems you were complaining about.
    You tried to attribute words to me and you responded to those falsely attributed words.

    See my OP and then see your response to that post.

    Why did you tag onto the end of my post:

    "as many represented by many islamist groups globally. ok thanks for clarifying."
    to this point have not heard a peep out of you in answer to that.
    [/B]
    Why would I respond to your response which was based on you inserting words into my previous response and trying to pass it off as if I had responded with the words which you have purported to state that I had responded to with?

    yes.. :dontknow:
    Are "democratic parties" allowed to carry out or attempt coups in a democracy?

    nope. in the 1970s various countries sent money to south africa to help townships - where they 'funding' apartheid south africa? Is USA funding taleban by sending aid to afganistan?

    i dont think you fully understand the concept of international aid.
    You believe Gaza = HAMAS

    The US, Scotland, France, UK and other countries (whom you've termed "civilized countries") are sending money to Gaza.

    Ergo, the "majority of the civilized world" are funding HAMAS.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Not necessarily - the press can and will report from war-zones. They avoid it if they can for obvious reasons (safety of the journalists) but if the story requires they enter a battle-zone, they will.
    Well this doesnt seem like that, when the press enter a warzone they are generally under the guard of one side, if the press here were under the guard of the IDF there would be no missiles firing from less than 100m away, if they were under the guard of Hamas, they certainly wouldnt fire missiles right next to where they were reporting........

    This leads me to believe that these journalists are in Gaza reporting on the conflict without any protection of either side, and coincidentally report in an area where Hamas decided to fire 3 rockets. This also leads me to believe its a civilian area.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    As opposed to supporting an organisation that bases it's desire to commit genocide on a 1300 year old set of beliefs that are are no more valid than the jewish faith?
    I don't support Hamas and nowhere hear have I claimed any supernatural belief to be valid so stop making stupid assumptions. Israel did though as a buffer against the secularist PLO when it was initially formed. Balance of Power and all that yunno.

    But good way to divert the topic. Mossad is teaching you as well.
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    I don't support Hamas and nowhere hear have I claimed any supernatural belief to be valid so stop making stupid assumptions. Israel did though as a buffer against the secularist PLO when it was initially formed. Balance of Power and all that yunno.

    But good way to divert the topic. Mossad is teaching you as well.
    At no point did I say you supported them or considered supernatural belief valid. What I described was simply the alternative. Still, if we're going to start taking sides based on saying one sides belief is a fairytale, then pretty much everyone except muslims and jews shouldn't be arguing this.

    Eh, it's not diverting the topic, unless you were diverting the topic when you asked why non-religious people would support Israel. I've got nothing to do with Mossad or Israel, but if you'd prefer to accuse people of being mossad shills rather than debate the points, that's up to you.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Hamas Rocket fire caught on camera by Al Jazeera

    Just "fireworks"
    :rolleyes:

    oh no. we cant have hamas look bad. quick, delete the link.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    As opposed to supporting an organisation that bases it's desire to commit genocide on a 1300 year old set of beliefs that are are no more valid than the jewish faith?
    The stench of your hatred, and indeed many of the anti-Muslim posters (who coincidentally are also pro-Israeli) is overwhelming in this thread.

    You have to resort to IDF propaganda, hyperbole, whataboutery (especially whataboutery > See above for case in example), outright lying (I'm still waiting for the post which you stated "I ignored") in order to make your point.

    Allow me to educate you as to one simple fact:

    Calling for the destruction of a State =/= Genocide.


    I suggest, sincerely, that you take a good look at yourself and clear the stench and wipe away the IDF propaganda **** that is currently emanating from your arguments.

    Not one thing (as far as I have been able to see) has been able to stand up to scrutiny. You have been thus far:

    a) Unable to prove that HAMAS uses UNRWA as munitions storage
    b) Prove that HAMAS advocates genocide.
    c) HAMAS broke the ceasefire by firing the first rocket.


    I can understand such arguments from people like miavdt, meenglishisnogood, chindits, pinzer and other pro-Israeli's but you, not only an atheist, but a moderator should know better.

    Come to think of it, you are not the only moderator who has displayed a particular preference for Israeli actions...
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    (Original post by Zeroic)
    Even if, there is this picture, which shows an IDF aiming a sniper at an innocent Palestinian childs head, he doesnt look like he is part of hamas does he

    That photo is nothing to do with the current conflict, is over a year old and is representative of the kind of "social media outrage" that you get now, with people not even clear what they are looking at.
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    Man, israel really needs to hurry up and achieve their objective. I'm tired of the constant fb spam/whining.
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    (Original post by Fraseer)
    On the human shield thing, yes there is no evidence that Hamas has force people into the line of fire directly, but they do launch rockets and what not from heavily civilized areas. If they really cared for the Palestine people they would not do this, it is just inviting more innocent deaths to happen.
    In a region which measures 25 miles by a couple of miles (about 1/4 the size of London, not to mention the permanent buffer zone of 1km on Gazan land) with a population of 1.8 million, where exactly do you think they should fire from?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    The stench of your hatred, and indeed many of the anti-Muslim posters (who coincidentally are also pro-Israeli) is overwhelming in this thread.

    You have to resort to IDF propaganda, hyperbole, whataboutery (especially whataboutery > See above for case in example), outright lying (I'm still waiting for the post which you stated "I ignored") in order to make your point.

    Allow me to educate you as to one simple fact:

    Calling for the destruction of a State =/= Genocide.


    I suggest, sincerely, that you take a good look at yourself and clear the stench and wipe away the IDF propaganda **** that is currently emanating from your arguments.

    Not one thing (as far as I have been able to see) has been able to stand up to scrutiny. You have been thus far:

    a) Unable to prove that HAMAS uses UNRWA as munitions storage
    b) Prove that HAMAS advocates genocide.
    c) HAMAS broke the ceasefire by firing the first rocket.


    I can understand such arguments from people like miavdt, meenglishisnogood, chindits, pinzer and other pro-Israeli's but you, not only a moderator but a Section Leader should know better.

    Come to think of it, you are not the only moderator who has displayed a particular preference for Israeli actions...
    Firstly, I'm not anti-muslim - my dislike for Hamas comes from them repeatedly admitting that eradication of the jews is their aim, along with the anti-semitic conspiracy nonsense of their charter (amongst other things it blames the jews for every war in history: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp (article 22: "There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.").

    Secondly, while calling for the destruction of a state isn't genocide, saying that they want to exterminate the jews is calling for genocide:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7WAoczRV_k

    Thirdly, my arguments have been backed up with sources - they're not IDF propaganda, unless the western media is just publishing IDF propaganda (I've deliberately avoided using israel based outlets to avoid those allegations).

    Fourthly, I've show that Hamas fired the first shot and several posters have shown the use of UN schools as storage bases and the calls for genocide.

    Finally, a correction - I'm not a section leader.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Well done buddy.
    For showing us what kind of filth of humanity we deal with here on these forums.
    No debate, no points, just low brained insults and jibes.
    Whether or not you view discussion of IDF as anti semitic that is up to, but it will not stop nor deter people from denouncing and pointing out these atrocities.
    Now bugger off.
    Can you please read his post properly before replying? Sure, everyone knows the IDF have committed some atrocious crimes in the conflict, but why not take a more balanced view of things?
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    isrealis are a million times worse than ISIS but the media wont bother to report it
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    In a region which measures 25 miles by a couple of miles (about 1/4 the size of London, not to mention the permanent buffer zone of 1km on Gazan land) with a population of 1.8 million, where exactly do you think they should fire from?
    It took me less than a second to come up with an answer, how about... THEY DONT FIRE?
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Firstly, I'm not anti-muslim - my dislike for Hamas comes from them repeatedly admitting that eradication of the jews is their aim, along with the anti-semitic conspiracy nonsense of their charter (amongst other things it blames the jews for every war in history: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp (article 22: "There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.").


    a) It clearly states Zionists, not Jews.

    b) Given the fact that the HAMAS Charter was drawn up in 1988, it is safe to assume that they were not referring to historical wars (as that was already expounded upon in the previous paragraph) but current ongoing conflicts.

    c) If you feel that any of the claims that they have made about certain people underwriting or conducting or providing finance or arms to various warring nations/groups in the world are erroneous, then let us hear you raise your objections.

    Secondly, while calling for the destruction of a state isn't genocide, saying that they want to exterminate the jews is calling for genocide:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7WAoczRV_k
    So no Charter link for this one? What happened to the Charter? Discarded it when it suited you?

    Thirdly, my arguments have been backed up with sources - they're not IDF propaganda, unless the western media is just publishing IDF propaganda (I've deliberately avoided using israel based outlets to avoid those allegations).
    I was saying that your conclusions were based on IDF propaganda, not your sources. I'm sorry if that wasn't made clear.

    Source: UNRWA finds rockets
    DF Propaganda: HAMAS hiding rockets in schools
    Stiffy: UNRWA says HAMAS hiding rockets in schools.

    Fourthly, I've show that Hamas fired the first shot and several posters have shown the use of UN schools as storage bases and the calls for genocide.
    a) As Inzaman has pointed out to you, your timeline is a little skewed as well as your propensity to use outdated sources.

    b) UN schools are used for munition storage but are they used for storage "by HAMAS" as you claim?

    c) I cannot find any mention of the calls for genocide in the HAMAS Charter. I mean, if they were pretty open about everything, why not put it in there? In fact, why do you selectively pick and choose what sources to quote?

    But hey, correct me if I'm wrong on any of those points...

    Finally, a correction - I'm not a section leader.
    I noticed that and revised my post accordingly.
 
 
 
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