BNP Paribas Watch

CLEE_F
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#21
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#21
(Original post by awm55)
then why are the world's leading financial firms (or any firm in any industry for that matter) generally not french? the truth is very few people get the opportunities to experience the best of the french system because they chuck you out if you are not good enough academically. the same can be said (although to a much lesser extent) about Unis in the UK because admissions is based solely upon academics and nothing else. i am bias here but I have experienced both the UK and US University systems, and I found the general student body in the US far more impressive in many ways.
i definatley agree here, the bnp will change this i think although i dont like the racism. the french csystem is ok but england need to change somewhat don't you think?
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KLL
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#22
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#22
(Original post by awm55)
not to sound like a bitter ****, but who do they think they are?
they think they're from a place where all people who haven't achieved a masters are considered unqualified. that palce would be continental europe.

you're gonna have a tough time getting on a grad scheme with a european bank in europe without a masters. And most who do have a few years of expereince i nthe idnsutry under their belt.

(Original post by awm55)
then why are the world's leading financial firms (or any firm in any industry for that matter) generally not french?
well they surely aren't British either. and AXA, BNP B are not exactly small players.
And the french do have quite a few leading firms. Total, EDF, GDF, Sanofi, CA, L'Oreal, Vivendi, Carrefour, Michelin, Saint Gobain, LVMH, Alstom, Areva, PSA, Peugot they're all leadign in their respective industries... Maybe you're gonna want to pick up a newspaper once in a while. You might just be proving their point on wanting Masters...
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Chewwy
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#23
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#23
(Original post by CLEE_F)
i definatley agree here, the bnp will change this i think although i dont like the racism. the french csystem is ok but england need to change somewhat don't you think?
worst post ever.
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Teenage Pirate
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Chewwy)
worst post ever.
best post on this thread (that was, not yours)
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G50
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#25
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#25
(Original post by strjd)
As I'm currently undertaking an internship at BNPP in Paris (albeit in real estate Investment Management) and have many friends who are from french universities (grandes écoles) I will give my two cents.
The education system in France is much longer and more difficult than that in the UK. Whereas someone in England can come out after A levels at 18, go straight into a 3 yr course and be applying for grad jobs when they're 20-21, in France the situation is very different. To even be considered for front office jobs in France (and therefore French banks), students have 2 years of intensive preparatory school after their A level equivalent before attending business school (or engineering school) for a further 3, sometimes 4 years. This means that they are usually 23/24 before they enter the workplace. What is evident to me from working in both london and paris is the huge disparity in ability and general intelligence between graduates in the UK and France. People emerging from French business schools, having completed their 2 compulsory internships and 1 compulsory exchange placement, aswell as speaking fluent English in addition to another foreign language are far more prepared for the workplace than we are.
IB's such as SG and BNPP are seeking people of the same standard that their domestic education system produces and the only equivalent in the UK are Masters students who have at least studied a further year.
We are lucky that the financial centre of Europe is in the UK and therefore native English is a huge asset as we would have trouble competing academically with our neighbours if this wasn't the case.
(Original post by strjd)
I have to disagree with this awm55. What is more practical, a course which offers 2 guaranteed internships provided by some of the world's biggest banks along with an exchange to universities such as IIM Bangalore, India where you will pick up a greater awareness of the world or a standard course such as Economics at LSE which is 3 years of theoretical courses such as "Principles of Econometrics", "Game Theory" and "The integration of Europe's economy 1815-1900". Interesting though these subjects may be, their real world application to situations in FO roles are minimal.
With regards to France's image as having a closed off education system, this tends to be spouted by people emerging from UK or US education as they are not seen as being qualified enoughto work in France. This isn't "closed", it's just seeking high standards.
There are of course flaws in the French education system including the elitism flowing through universities such as HEC and ESSEC but this is not too far removed from the arrogance emanating from certain Oxbridge members.
Excellently put. I did my secondary education in France, and I can say for sure that the French baccalaureate (not quite the same as other baccalaureates) is also much harder than A Levels. You don't get to pick 'Mickey Mouse' subjects, as you're forced to study hard sciences, languages, etc. That's right, you don't really choose classes (apart from maybe a few). You can only choose three different 'paths': Science, Economics, or Humanities (literature, philosophy, history/geography, languages etc), but they all have more or less the same subjects... it's just that your results in, say, languages, are less important when you're in the Science path (and inversely, maths are less important when you're in Humanities). You're also forced to learn two foreign languages, and it's not uncommon for people to take a third.

You think three A Levels are a lot of time? Try studying for six or more subjects a year (you do half your exams one year, and the other half the next, so probably 12 in all). And the grading scale is MUCH harsher, because it's on a "20/20" scale. Let's just say that a straight A student from the UK would probably get grades averaging 16/20 in France. Those 'top' 19/20 grades (20/20 is nearly 'never' given) are reserved for a very, very small amount of students (compared to the tons who get AAA or similar in the UK). And then keep in mind that it's quite normal for school to finish at 6 PM (that's how they fit it all in, after all), before extra-curricular activities and homework. Put simply, education in France is a chore unless you're part of the few who can really stomach that huge workload for years and years. It does obviously put out some great minds though, for those who really put their lives into it.
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texex
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#26
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#26
(Original post by G50)
Excellently put. I did my secondary education in France, and I can say for sure that the French baccalaureate (not quite the same as other baccalaureates) is also much harder than A Levels. You don't get to pick 'Mickey Mouse' subjects, as you're forced to study hard sciences, languages, etc. That's right, you don't really choose classes (apart from maybe a few). You can only choose three different 'paths': Science, Economics, or Humanities (literature, philosophy, history/geography, languages etc), but they all have more or less the same subjects... it's just that your results in, say, languages, are less important when you're in the Science path (and inversely, maths are less important when you're in Humanities). You're also forced to learn two foreign languages, and it's not uncommon for people to take a third.

You think three A Levels are a lot of time? Try studying for six or more subjects a year (you do half your exams one year, and the other half the next, so probably 12 in all). And the grading scale is MUCH harsher, because it's on a "20/20" scale. Let's just say that a straight A student from the UK would probably get grades averaging 16/20 in France. Those 'top' 19/20 grades (20/20 is nearly 'never' given) are reserved for a very, very small amount of students (compared to the tons who get AAA or similar in the UK). And then keep in mind that it's quite normal for school to finish at 6 PM (that's how they fit it all in, after all), before extra-curricular activities and homework. Put simply, education in France is a chore unless you're part of the few who can really stomach that huge workload for years and years. It does obviously put out some great minds though, for those who really put their lives into it.
This thread is about university level education. Keep in my mind that you can take the IB in the UK as well which is very similar to what you are talking about.
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shizzler
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#27
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#27
(Original post by texex)
This thread is about university level education. Keep in my mind that you can take the IB in the UK as well which is very similar to what you are talking about.
I have studied in France until I was about 15 and I have also done the IB. I can tell you the IB was quite relaxing next to the french system...
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awm55
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#28
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#28
(Original post by KLL)
they think they're from a place where all people who haven't achieved a masters are considered unqualified. that palce would be continental europe.

you're gonna have a tough time getting on a grad scheme with a european bank in europe without a masters. And most who do have a few years of expereince i nthe idnsutry under their belt.


well they surely aren't British either. and AXA, BNP B are not exactly small players.
And the french do have quite a few leading firms. Total, EDF, GDF, Sanofi, CA, L'Oreal, Vivendi, Carrefour, Michelin, Saint Gobain, LVMH, Alstom, Areva, PSA, Peugot they're all leadign in their respective industries... Maybe you're gonna want to pick up a newspaper once in a while. You might just be proving their point on wanting Masters...
i seriously doubt you need a master's degree to work at L'Oreal or LVMH. other developed countries have firms that directly compete with the top French firms, and their performance doesn't seem to suffer much just because they (god forbid) hire an employee without a masters degree. also...the french graduate recruitment market in general is a totally different kettle of fish than the market in the U.S. or UK. most French graduates are quite happy to work as civil servants their whole life.
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G50
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#29
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#29
(Original post by shizzler)
I have studied in France until I was about 15 and I have also done the IB. I can tell you the IB was quite relaxing next to the french system...
Indeed. It's not quite the same.

(Original post by awm55)
also...the french graduate recruitment market in general is a totally different kettle of fish than the market in the U.S. or UK. most French graduates are quite happy to work as civil servants their whole life.
Not sure where you got that from, to be honest.
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strjd
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#30
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#30
(Original post by awm55)
i seriously doubt you need a master's degree to work at L'Oreal or LVMH. other developed countries have firms that directly compete with the top French firms, and their performance doesn't seem to suffer much just because they (god forbid) hire an employee without a masters degree. also...the french graduate recruitment market in general is a totally different kettle of fish than the market in the U.S. or UK. most French graduates are quite happy to work as civil servants their whole life.
A seriously dated and stereotypical image of the labour market in France. Approximately 3.8% of those in the French workforce are civil servants compared to 3.1% in the UK.
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teriaki
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#31
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#31
(Original post by strjd)
A seriously dated and stereotypical image of the labour market in France. Approximately 3.8% of those in the French workforce are civil servants compared to 3.1% in the UK.
Please apologize my extremely stupid question, but what kind of people are labeled as civil servants? Since I read on Wikipedia that the civil service does not include doctors, military personnel, teachers, police officers and local government officials, so I can't think of many more people who get their salary from the government but aren't among those groups i just listed.
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strjd
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#32
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Don't confuse public sector workers with civil servants. Civil servants are employed by the crown (e.g. ministry of justice, ministry of defence, revenue and customs etc.)
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Teenage Pirate
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#33
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#33
(Original post by strjd)
A seriously dated and stereotypical image of the labour market in France. Approximately 3.8% of those in the French workforce are civil servants compared to 3.1% in the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7293992.stm
75% of French graduates would like to work in the public sector.
There is no way in hell the UK number comes even close to that.
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awm55
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Teenage Pirate)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7293992.stm
75% of French graduates would like to work in the public sector.
There is no way in hell the UK number comes even close to that.
proves my point
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strjd
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#35
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1. As stated in my previous post awm55, civil servants does not equal public sector.

2. The fact that a high % of people want to work in the public sector is neither here nor there with regards to university education which is what the original discussion was about. If we were provided the benefits that companies like EDF offer then we would have a similar percentage.

3. This article was obviously written by someone with no idea about the french education system as they state;

"But despite the nationwide passion for education, surprisingly, not a single French university makes it into the world's top 40"

I beg to differ. HEC is Europe's leading business school. Ecole Polytechnique is Europe's leading engineering school and 2nd in the world behind MIT. France doesn't have universities in the conventional sense so it is difficult to be included in a list of the world's best "universities".
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awm55
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#36
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#36
(Original post by strjd)
1. As stated in my previous post awm55, civil servants does not equal public sector.

2. The fact that a high % of people want to work in the public sector is neither here nor there with regards to university education which is what the original discussion was about. If we were provided the benefits that companies like EDF offer then we would have a similar percentage.

3. This article was obviously written by someone with no idea about the french education system as they state;

"But despite the nationwide passion for education, surprisingly, not a single French university makes it into the world's top 40"

I beg to differ. HEC is Europe's leading business school. Ecole Polytechnique is Europe's leading engineering school and 2nd in the world behind MIT. France doesn't have universities in the conventional sense so it is difficult to be included in a list of the world's best "universities".
right...they don't have universities in the conventional sense. they have specialist institutes that are closed to the vast majority of people. as i said before, if you are not the best of the best academically in France you are essentially kicked out of the education system after a certain point. this supports the argument that the system is closed and elitist.
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