Nottingham or Westminster for Architecture 2010/11? Watch

Hispanic-Impressions
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#21
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#21
(Original post by jrhartley)
unfortunately not. funnily enough, it was the people with u/g firsts from cardiff in architecture were those that had the hardest time finding work in year 4.
Really? Eek. (Not that I'll get a first anyway.)
Why do you think that happened - because it was from the wsa?!
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dschna
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#22
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(Original post by Hispanic-Impressions)
Really? Eek. (Not that I'll get a first anyway.)
Why do you think that happened - because it was from the wsa?!
Maybe it's like the current secondary education system and higher education; you get punished for success.
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dschna
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(Original post by glauco)
It's easy for people to say that Wmin is rubbish, but based on what? Do they study there? Do they know anyone from there? What kind of real experience did they have for having this sort of opinion?
Regardless of it's current reputation (or lack of), it's still an ex-polytechnic.

Suppose you decide, after three years of undergraduate, that you don't want to pursue a career in architecture. Then, with a degree from Westminster over Nottingham... you're pretty much ______.
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yeahyeahyeahs
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(Original post by dschna)
Regardless of it's current reputation (or lack of), it's still an ex-polytechnic.

Suppose you decide, after three years of undergraduate, that you don't want to pursue a career in architecture. Then, with a degree from Westminster over Nottingham... you're pretty much ______.
Please don't be giving this guy/female useless information. I know plenty of people who graduated from universities such as bath or nottingham and ended up working in morrisons, or as a waiter, two years after graduation.

Do you think a degree entitles you to a job after graduation, especially if its from a red brick?
Unfortunately, this does not happen unless you have a rich parents or have connected links.

Please get a grip.

you are what you make of it at university.

My mate already bagged himself a £35k graduate job for a big pharmaceutical company and he hasn't even graduated. He always got in to do a masters at Cambridge University and HE COMES FROM WESTMINSTER University.

If you are a highly ambitious individual, you will succeed. unfortunately most people don't think to network during their time at university and when they graduate, they are ****ed.
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jrhartley
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(Original post by Hispanic-Impressions)
Really? Eek. (Not that I'll get a first anyway.)
Why do you think that happened - because it was from the wsa?!
I think because employers think because they've got firsts they think they should be running the design team. which is probably fair for a couple of them - they find it hard to accept anyone else's opinions.
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glauco
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#26
(Original post by yeahyeahyeahs)

you are what you make of it at university.

If you are a highly ambitious individual, you will succeed.
I do agree with you. It depends more on your personality and what you are rather than where you come from, unless you come from a horrible place. I think that people don't realise that the built environment department is not the same as the other schools within Wmin. Different unis invest on different courses, and I believe that we are very well at the Marylebone Campus.

So, why did you choose Wmin in the end? What were your other choices? Do you regret it? How much confident do you feel about teaching quality there? In your experience, the fact that it once was a polytechnic have any bad influence on it or on how people (architects, practices) look at someone with a diploma from there? A part from your pharmacist friend, do you know anyone who succeeded in an architectural job?

Many thanks
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kates:)
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#27
(Original post by jrhartley)
they've got Chryssanthi coming in to crit?

NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!! Gold dust.
Deal sealer, surely

Plus OP - there is a higher ratio of girls to boys here at Nottingham so if that's your fancy.

If Carlsberg made uni's...
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yeahyeahyeahs
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Dear OP,


I think the best advice is don't even start studying for architecture. It will depress you so much, you would want to kill yourself in your studio.
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glauco
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(Original post by yeahyeahyeahs)
Dear OP,


I think the best advice is don't even start studying for architecture. It will depress you so much, you would want to kill yourself in your studio.
I'm sad to hear that you have that opinion. Unfortunately that is what happens to people who don't have the right vocation for this career and end up there 'coz they don't know what else to do. I'm sorry if that is your experience. On the other hand, I am sure of what I want and I have enough background in the industry to know so. I have no doubt about it. That has never been amongst my concerns and that is not the sort of opinion I believe to be constructive and helpful to anyone who comes to this forum seeking for support. If that is the way you feel, remember that it's never too late to change and re-start. Go for what you believe to be your vocation, inspiration and excitement. Good luck!
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River85
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#30
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(Original post by Byllie)
surely a :troll:

Notts everyday of the week
(Original post by dschna)
Why are you even contemplating attending Westminster over Nottingham?
Suprisingly (or perhaps not so suprising, for those who know what they're talking about) Westminster actually has a very good architecture department.

From a research perspective it's actually stronger than Nottingham.

(Original post by dschna)
Regardless of it's current reputation (or lack of), it's still an ex-polytechnic.
Well you know what that means, they've probably been teaching architecture for longer than Nottingham has been! Don't forget, it was the former polytechnics who (although they did still teach traditionally academic subjects like the sciences, history etc.) taught professional courses including architecture.

Not all employers will spit on a degree from an ex-poly. I'm sure a Nottingham degree will give an advantage in certain sectors, but given the wide range of career areas in both public and private sector it's very difficult to generalise. Though I would wager than in the majoity of areas employers will either not care, or will be more concerned with a candidate's qualifications, experience, personal qualities and interview performance.

Some of the OP's reasons for preferring Westminster are very understandable. I'm not saying Nottingham is the better choice, but I do believe we should show his reasons a lot more respect and we certainly shouldn't dismiss Westminster so easily. After all, the university choice is a personal thing.
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Byllie
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#31
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(Original post by River85)
Suprisingly (or perhaps not so suprising, for those who know what they're talking about) Westminster actually has a very good architecture department.

From a research perspective it's actually stronger than Nottingham.



Well you know what that means, they've probably been teaching architecture for longer than Nottingham has been! Don't forget, it was the former polytechnics who (although they did still teach traditionally academic subjects like the sciences, history etc.) taught professional courses including architecture.

Not all employers will spit on a degree from an ex-poly. I'm sure a Nottingham degree will give an advantage in certain sectors, but given the wide range of career areas in both public and private sector it's very difficult to generalise. Though I would wager than in the majoity of areas employers will either not care, or will be more concerned with a candidate's qualifications, experience, personal qualities and interview performance.

Some of the OP's reasons for preferring Westminster are very understandable. I'm not saying Nottingham is the better choice, but I do believe we should show his reasons a lot more respect and we certainly shouldn't dismiss Westminster so easily. After all, the university choice is a personal thing.
Don't give the man bad advice

If he didn't want to do architecture specifically as a job - nottingham offers you such better insurance.
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Hispanic-Impressions
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#32
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(Original post by glauco)
I'm sad to hear that you have that opinion. Unfortunately that is what happens to people who don't have the right vocation for this career and end up there 'coz they don't know what else to do. I'm sorry if that is your experience. On the other hand, I am sure of what I want and I have enough background in the industry to know so. I have no doubt about it. That has never been amongst my concerns and that is not the sort of opinion I believe to be constructive and helpful to anyone who comes to this forum seeking for support. If that is the way you feel, remember that it's never too late to change and re-start. Go for what you believe to be your vocation, inspiration and excitement. Good luck!
No. This can (or is?) what happens to even those with a huge passion for the subject; sadly this is down to the nature of the course.
I'm pretty sure that 98% of the people in my year have felt like this at one point or another. It comes as part and parcel of the course I'm afraid.
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Hispanic-Impressions
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#33
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(Original post by Byllie)
Don't give the man bad advice

If he didn't want to do architecture specifically as a job - nottingham offers you such better insurance.
To be honest, if he didn't want to do architecture specifically as a job, there would be little point in putting yourself through the torture that the course entails. In my opinion.
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River85
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#34
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(Original post by Byllie)
If he didn't want to do architecture specifically as a job - nottingham offers you such better insurance.
Did I deny that?

I am only highlighting the prejudice of those who dismiss the "ex polys", often with little to no knowledge of the subject or departments involved. Those who do that are giving bad advice.

Perhaps Nottingham will give a better insurance, should he decide not to go into architecture. But the amount that university reputation matters varies considerably by career area. I'm sure if he decides he wants to go into IB, for example, then Nottingham is by far the better choice.

Some people here would have you believe a Westminster degree makes you completely unemployable. That you'll be (and this word has been used twice) "******". He'll perhaps be in an unfavourable positions, possible a very unfavourable position depending on the career area, but not completely unemployable. Architecture is still a solid degree, regardless of where it's from.

But the most important aspect has to be strength of architecture department, facilities and living environment and Nottingham does not have a clear upper hand in this regard. It's very much a personal decision. I'm not sure whether the OP should get too carried away with hypothetical situations.

University snobbery on TSR does amuse me. There are people at redbricks, Bath, Nottingham or Kent who call the former polytechnics crap and useless. But if someone from Oxford or Cambridge decided to **** off their university they'd be the first to cry "snob!".
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Byllie
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#35
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(Original post by River85)
Did I deny that?

I am only highlighting the prejudice of those who dismiss the "ex polys", often with little to no knowledge of the subject or departments involved. Those who do that are giving bad advice.

Perhaps Nottingham will give a better insurance, should he decide not to go into architecture. But the amount that university reputation matters varies considerably by career area. I'm sure if he decides he wants to go into IB, for example, then Nottingham is by far the better choice.

Some people here would have you believe a Westminster degree makes you completely unemployable. That you'll be (and this word has been used twice) "******". He'll perhaps be in an unfavourable positions, possible a very unfavourable position depending on the career area, but not completely unemployable. Architecture is still a solid degree, regardless of where it's from.

But the most important aspect has to be strength of architecture department, facilities and living environment and Nottingham does not have a clear upper hand in this regard. It's very much a personal decision. I'm not sure whether the OP should get too carried away with hypothetical situations.

University snobbery on TSR does amuse me. There are people at redbricks, Bath, Nottingham or Kent who call the former polytechnics crap and useless. But if someone from Oxford or Cambridge decided to **** off their university they'd be the first to cry "snob!".
I agree - but university snobbery isn't just reserved for TSR. Remember when your mum used to say to you 'work hard to get into a good redbrick university'. People are inherantly ignorant about universities everywhere and your average joe will not know that middlesex is 4th in the table for bible studies. Not many people know what they wan't to do at 18-21. It's better to take less risk and go with the redbrick IMO.
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River85
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Byllie)
I agree - but university snobbery isn't just reserved for TSR. Remember when your mum used to say to you 'work hard to get into a good redbrick university'. .
No, she didn't say that (and I'm not at a redbrick university). She still has no idea of what a redbrick is and never pushed me to get good grades. Providing I tried my best (aware that I have some ability and intelligence), she was always happy. I don't think she would have cared have I went to, say, Manchester Met instead of Durham.

(Original post by Byllie)
People are inherantly ignorant about universities everywhere and your average joe will not know that middlesex is 4th in the table for bible studies. Not many people know what they wan't to do at 18-21. It's better to take less risk and go with the redbrick IMO.
First of all, it's usally called "Theology" - an ancient and well respected (as well as very respected) academic discipline. Not "Bilbe studies" :p: More seriously, we are not discussing an arts based subject here. We're talking about a solid degree, which gives graduates a range of professional-related and techincal skills as well as a wide range of transferable skills.

As for the difference in university name the "average joe on the street" migtn't know much about universities. But why on earth should that matter? In my experience few "average joes" are aware of any universities beyond Oxbridge and possibly Durham and two of the Scottish Ancients. They might be faintly aware of Imperial or UCL (or LSE, as the whore themselves to the media). Then they might also have some idea that redbricks or big city unis (Bristol, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle....) are reasonably good.

The "average joe on the street" who has little idea about universities probably not the person doing the hiring of gradautes. Someone who does the hiring in the professions usually will have a reasonable idea about universities and will have their own preferences.

But most importantly, I can safely bet that the people who were so dismissive of Westminster probably think Nottingham has a better department, simply because it's so much higher in the league tables. Westminster can't have a good department simply because it's an ex-poly. That's the main point I wanted to attack. I see it all the time. The best part of two years ago there was a "Durham V. Birmingham" thread in the old Choosing a University thread. It was filled with people, few of them at university and even a fewer number with any knowledge of the deparments in question, being very dismissive of Birmingham and refused to believe it could have a better department (and these are excellent universities!). Same in an Imperial V Durham for physics thread in the Durham forum. People invaded that creaming over Imperial, completely unaware that Durham have one of the strongest departments in the country (and, in some areas, the world). But because Imperial is Imperial, it must be better. Again, these are two excellent universities. It's even worse when comparing a Russell or 94 Group uni to a former polytechnic.

I still maintain that it's more important the OP picks the correct architecture department for him. If he choses Nottingham, still a decent architecture school and established name, then all the better.

Architecture is not the sort of course to take lightly. Hopefully the OP is aware that architecture, or an architecture related career, is for him.
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glauco
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Hi Lulubelle III,
Thanks for getting my point. I thought that it was pretty clear to everyone but I guess I was wrong.
The facilities at Wmin are very impressive. I have been there 3 times and would be very happy to study there. Talked to students and tutors, asked them all the questions I wanted and felt really positive about it. I got over all this reputation thing and am now treating both unis equally.
I now know that my final decision will be based on where I want to live, Notts or London. I know that I will be happy at either uni and will end up with, as you said, a solid degree and get myself into the industry, successfully, if I try hard and make myself a good professional throughout my university years.
It is a very personal decision with much complexity involved, it has though been useful to share it here and hear what people had to say.
Many thanks to you guys for your time
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yeahyeahyeahs
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#38
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(Original post by glauco)
I'm sad to hear that you have that opinion. Unfortunately that is what happens to people who don't have the right vocation for this career and end up there 'coz they don't know what else to do. I'm sorry if that is your experience. On the other hand, I am sure of what I want and I have enough background in the industry to know so. I have no doubt about it. That has never been amongst my concerns and that is not the sort of opinion I believe to be constructive and helpful to anyone who comes to this forum seeking for support. If that is the way you feel, remember that it's never too late to change and re-start. Go for what you believe to be your vocation, inspiration and excitement. Good luck!

No, I speak on behalf of all architects. are you telling me you never had feelings like this during your studies as being an architecture student?

by the way, I will be finishing my degree in architecture.
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jrhartley
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#39
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(Original post by glauco)
I'm sad to hear that you have that opinion. Unfortunately that is what happens to people who don't have the right vocation for this career and end up there 'coz they don't know what else to do.
I second what yeahyeahyeahs said, and I disagree with you glauco. I would say of my year group (fifth year) around 80% have the ability to be an architect - in terms of skills and intelligence. All of them started bright eyed and bushy tailed, eager to make a difference, eager to be architects. They had the drive.

After four years in academia I would say of that 80%, over half are now just not sure what they want to do. The education process has crushed them, deflated them, bruised them, exhausted them, driven them to mental breakdowns or depression. Many think that after three months away, travelling, working in bars, they will bounce back and enter architecture again, but a lot are also now planning to do something different.

the system is designed to break you.
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glauco
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#40
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(Original post by jrhartley)
I second what yeahyeahyeahs said, and I disagree with you glauco. I would say of my year group (fifth year) around 80% have the ability to be an architect - in terms of skills and intelligence. All of them started bright eyed and bushy tailed, eager to make a difference, eager to be architects. They had the drive.

After four years in academia I would say of that 80%, over half are now just not sure what they want to do. The education process has crushed them, deflated them, bruised them, exhausted them, driven them to mental breakdowns or depression. Many think that after three months away, travelling, working in bars, they will bounce back and enter architecture again, but a lot are also now planning to do something different.

the system is designed to break you.
I can see your point. However I think that it's not about ability, skills or intelligence but real vocation, it's about where your heart is. I know it's hard, I know it's a long course, I know it's not the best paid job in the world. The thing is that it's what I want to do. I wish I had a different vocation and wanted to do something different, a course that take 3 years, something that wouldn't be in my thoughts 24/7 even if I'm not working, and guarantee me a very well paid job. I can't think of anything else. Unfortunately I want to be an architect. I never questioned that and I don't know why the thread has gone down this path, I really don't. I asked
"yeahyeahyeahs" things related to the University of Westminster and positive and negative experiences there that could help me make up my mind on which uni to choose. She offered this sort of help in another thread and I thought that it'd be nice to hear from someone like her.
So back to you now, do you regret having made this choice? Would you do anything differentif you had the chance? What? Do think that all your effort was worth it? What did you do on you year out? What are your plans from now on?
Many thanks for your interest
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