Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Religion is a force for good in the world - Tony Blair vs. Christopher Hitchens Watch

    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hylean)
    I honestly disagree. I don't know many religious people who honestly expect God or the Gods to sort the world out. In fact, I don't think I know any, and I don't know of any religion that actually espouses such an idea either.




    You need to do some deeper research. Wars have been cause by desire for land, money, resources and power. Religion, Nationalism and Racism are all just fronts for those deeper reasons. If you can't see that, then you're really blind.

    No war can be traced back to Religion, Racism or Nationalism. There is always something behind those that is the actual reason for the war.

    The idiocy of your post astounds me.
    Because WWII had nothing to do with racism or nationalism. Becuase the Crusades had nothing to so with religion.

    Fair enough, Money, power, land ect are often valid causes of wars. However, claiming that 'no war can be traced back to Religion, Racism or Nationalism,' Is just ridiculous.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by IFondledAGibbon)
    Because WWII had nothing to do with racism or nationalism. Becuase the Crusades had nothing to so with religion.

    Fair enough, Money, power, land ect are often valid causes of wars. However, claiming that 'no war can be traced back to Religion, Racism or Nationalism,' Is just ridiculous.
    WWII was all about land and power, numpty. The Germans wanted more land, wanted more power, and went for it.

    The Crusades were all about land! Religion was just the excuse used for them.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    hitchens wins hands down. because he's right. why organised religion still exists i'll never know...
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hylean)
    WWII was all about land and power, numpty. The Germans wanted more land, wanted more power, and went for it.

    The Crusades were all about land! Religion was just the excuse used for them.
    NAZI ideology:

    Lebensraum - the need for 'living space' for the German nation to expand.

    A strong Germany - the Treaty of Versailles should be abolished and all German-speaking people united in one country.

    Führer - the idea that there should be a single leader with complete power rather than a democracy.

    Social Darwinism - the idea that the Aryan race was superior and Jews were 'subhuman'.

    Autarky - the idea that Germany should be economically self-sufficient.
    Germany was in danger - from Communists and Jews, who had to be destroyed.

    WWII wasn’t some power/land struggle. It was NAZI nationalist/racist ideology. Obviously they needed land and power to fulfil this, but it wasn't the cause for the war.



    Christians commonly try to defend the Crusades as political or at least as politics being masked by religion, but in reality sincere religious devotion — both Muslim and Christian — played a primary role on both sides.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by IFondledAGibbon)
    NAZI ideology:

    Lebensraum - the need for 'living space' for the German nation to expand.

    A strong Germany - the Treaty of Versailles should be abolished and all German-speaking people united in one country.

    Führer - the idea that there should be a single leader with complete power rather than a democracy.

    Social Darwinism - the idea that the Aryan race was superior and Jews were 'subhuman'.

    Autarky - the idea that Germany should be economically self-sufficient.
    Germany was in danger - from Communists and Jews, who had to be destroyed.

    WWII wasn’t some power/land struggle. It was NAZI nationalist/racist ideology. Obviously they needed land and power to fulfil this, but it wasn't the cause for the war.



    Christians commonly try to defend the Crusades as political or at least as politics being masked by religion, but in reality sincere religious devotion — both Muslim and Christian — played a primary role on both sides.
    Wow, so you are able to show me that behind Nazism, there stands ideas for land, power and money. Seeing as the majority of Europe wasn't Jewish, their racist policies hardly matter. So, the Germans wanted Lebensraum, which means they wanted land and they launched a war to obtain it. So, really, WWII was about land, power and money. Good that you're able to admit this. Amazing, and here I thought you were going to argue against me.

    Of course religion played a primary role, but that doesn't mean religion was the reason. Seriously, do you even read what you post before you hit "submit reply"? They were fighting over land, land which gave them power. Whilst I doubt the Crusades wouldn't've happened if Christianity hadn't existed at that time, the wars were not because of religion.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hylean)
    Wow, so you are able to show me that behind Nazism, there stands ideas for land, power and money. Seeing as the majority of Europe wasn't Jewish, their racist policies hardly matter. So, the Germans wanted Lebensraum, which means they wanted land and they launched a war to obtain it. So, really, WWII was about land, power and money. Good that you're able to admit this. Amazing, and here I thought you were going to argue against me.

    Of course religion played a primary role, but that doesn't mean religion was the reason. Seriously, do you even read what you post before you hit "submit reply"? They were fighting over land, land which gave them power. Whilst I doubt the Crusades wouldn't've happened if Christianity hadn't existed at that time, the wars were not because of religion.
    Let me make this simple.

    Yes, they wanted Lebensraum which is about land. Why did they want Lebensraum? Because of the Nationalist and Racist ideology. Therefore, the Nationalist and racist ideology is the cause of the war. Without it, they woulden't have wanted Lebensraum, and there would have been no war.

    Yes, Hitler wanted power. Why? Because of his Nationalist and Racist ideology. Therefore, the Nationalist and racist ideology is the cause of the war. Without it, he woulden't have wanted power, and there would have been no war.

    Let me make this simple.

    The most immediate cause for the Crusades is also the most obvious: Muslim incursions into previously Christian lands. Yes, the Muslims wanted land. Why? Because of their religious views. Therefore, their religous views was the reason for the Crusades. Without their religious views, there woulden't have been any Crusades.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by IFondledAGibbon)
    Let me make this simple.

    Yes, they wanted Lebensraum which is about land. Why did they want Lebensraum? Because of the Nationalist and Racist ideology. Therefore, the Nationalist and racist ideology is the cause of the war. Without it, they woulden't have wanted Lebensraum, and there would have been no war.

    Yes, Hitler wanted power. Why? Because of his Nationalist and Racist ideology. Therefore, the Nationalist and racist ideology is the cause of the war. Without it, he woulden't have wanted power, and there would have been no war.
    Oh, bull****. Are you really that dense? You think that because of his Nazism he wanted power, land, etc.? You don't think his desire for those things informed Nazism instead? Really? You think that the second he started the Nazi party, that's when he developed these desires? Cause really, that's what you're implying. You're implying that Hitler did not want more land, power, etc. before he became a Nazi, and as we know, Nazism didn't really come about until 1923, at least. Yet it's clear Hitler had these ideas long before that time.

    No, sir, let me make this simple: WWII was all about land and power.

    (Original post by IFondledAGibbon)
    Let me make this simple.

    The most immediate cause for the Crusades is also the most obvious: Muslim incursions into previously Christian lands. Yes, the Muslims wanted land. Why? Because of their religious views. Therefore, their religous views was the reason for the Crusades. Without their religious views, there woulden't have been any Crusades.
    Why does anyone want land? So they used religion as their excuse, it doesn't mean it's the ultimate reason. The reason for the Crusades was land and power. If you really can't see that, then I honestly hope you don't do a history degree or anything that really involves analytical thinking. You'll fail.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hylean)
    Oh, bull****. Are you really that dense? You think that because of his Nazism he wanted power, land, etc.? You don't think his desire for those things informed Nazism instead? Really? You think that the second he started the Nazi party, that's when he developed these desires? Cause really, that's what you're implying. You're implying that Hitler did not want more land, power, etc. before he became a Nazi, and as we know, Nazism didn't really come about until 1923, at least. Yet it's clear Hitler had these ideas long before that time.

    No, sir, let me make this simple: WWII was all about land and power.



    Why does anyone want land? So they used religion as their excuse, it doesn't mean it's the ultimate reason. The reason for the Crusades was land and power. If you really can't see that, then I honestly hope you don't do a history degree or anything that really involves analytical thinking. You'll fail.
    It comes down too this: You think all people want is land and power; their political or religious views are mere coincidences, or a result of these desires. I believe that it is their religious and often nationalistic political views that fuel their desire for power. I don't think either of us will shift on the matter. Obviously we can never know which way round it is. However, the simple fact of the matter is: if religion did not exist the Crusades would not have happened, and if Hitler was not a racist and a nationalist, there would not have been WWII.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    God bless Atheistism!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ily_em)
    right, erm thanks?

    What are your opinions on the topic? Have you seen any of the debate?
    I haven't been into any debate recently. Ermm the topic? I don't understand. Sorry if this is a troll. I gave you a rep few moments ago just as promised, but when I woke up in the morning I saw someone neg rep you where I promised.
    • Offline

      1
      (Original post by Reformed2010)
      God bless Atheistism!
      You sound like Ricky Gervais who says he thanks God every night that he is an atheist.
      Offline

      13
      ReputationRep:
      I hope being roundly trounced by Mr Hitchens gave Tony time to reflect upon, and maybe make changes to, his own belief system; for the benefit of his role as UN peace keeper to the middle east.
      Offline

      0
      ReputationRep:
      Religions are self inflicted curses upon mankind.
      Offline

      16
      ReputationRep:
      I've not watched the Tony Blair debate yet, but this thread reminded me of a good debate from last year, 'the Catholic church is a force for good in the world', featuring Stephen Fry, Archbishop John Onaiyekan, Ann Widdecombe, Christopher Hitchens and Zeinab Badawi. It's well worth watching.
     
     
     
  1. See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  2. Poll
    Did TEF Bronze Award affect your UCAS choices?
    Useful resources
  3. See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  4. The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.