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    (Original post by Low Profile)
    Well that shouldn't be the case. Your political allegance should be advocated in some terminology of your views on poltical theory. What's the point of holding a belief if you don't want to carry it through to produce something? Basically you vote Tories but disagree with the monopoly government, entryism and upper-class explolitation. Sounds very contradicTORY
    I don't believe any party in the UK is in anyway linked to its original ideological founding. so there is hardly any point voting based on any ideology when Labour and the Tories are almost next to each other in terms of the center ground.

    I also do not believe that there exists any viable alternative to our capitalist state in the same way I do not believe democracy is a very good system ether yet no better alternative exists.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    I don't believe any party in the UK is in anyway linked to its original ideological founding. so there is hardly any point voting based on any ideology when Labour and the Tories are almost next to each other in terms of the center ground.

    I also do not believe that there exists any viable alternative to our capitalist state in the same way I do not believe democracy is a very good system ether yet no better alternative exists.
    What's wrong with libertarian communism? Have you read any of the FAQ yet?
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      (Original post by tieyourmotherdown)
      I feel exactly the same. Capitalism is merely the best of a really bad bunch in my opinion.
      Depends on whether you mean laissez-faire Capitalism, or state-capitalism (Corporatism)?

      I don't think Corporatism should ever be accepted. It's the use of force & coercion through politicians.
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      Although I haven't done any political work on him, I have noticed his name mentioned more than once in my A-level Ethics and Philosophy text book. I find myself agreeing with his social view on religion- The phrase "opiate of the masses" comes very much to mind
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      Marx provides an invaluable means of analysing capitalism, with regards to an alternative he gives little, for which i think libertarian socialism best provides.
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      to be honest, in western societies we have avoided what marx described by limiting the bad apsects of capitalism with welfare reforms and benefits, which give the workers what they want. i assume that will happen in most developing countries, where exploitation is at its worst, due to internation pressures from people such as the EU
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      Social-democracy.

      About as good as we're going to get.
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      (Original post by joebro)
      to be honest, in western societies we have avoided what marx described by limiting the bad apsects of capitalism with welfare reforms and benefits, which give the workers what they want. i assume that will happen in most developing countries, where exploitation is at its worst, due to internation pressures from people such as the EU
      No, no we haven't, ownership of the means of production, the crux of marxian analysis, remains in private ownership, thus perpetuating the contemptable internal social relations of capitalism & exploitation of the majority. Nevermind about the rest.
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      (Original post by wilson_smith)
      No, no we haven't, ownership of the means of production, the crux of marxian analysis, remains in private ownership, thus perpetuating the contemptable internal social relations of capitalism & exploitation of the majority. Nevermind about the rest.
      the means of production remain in the hands of the bourgeoise, yes, but you have to consider the rest - once of the essential points in Marx is that he predicts revolution when the proletariat become aware of their exploitation. welfare reforms slow that down, or stop it completely, which is why there is not an example in the world of where Marxism has happened as Marx described it
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      (Original post by joebro)
      the means of production remain in the hands of the bourgeoise, yes, but you have to consider the rest - once of the essential points in Marx is that he predicts revolution when the proletariat become aware of their exploitation. welfare reforms slow that down, or stop it completely, which is why there is not an example in the world of where Marxism has happened as Marx described it
      Yes - it is a good way for the bourgeois class to keep the worker's quiet but in the end does not achieve what Marx wanted: a classless stateless society where the workers owned the means of production.

      Furthermore, western workers have been able to keep there lives in check thanks to the exploitation by private capital of third world countries - not that it is the workers' fault, of course. While there are freer market economies, there will also be entirely degraded countries like Pakistan that can be exploited as a source of cheap labour. The EU don't want more democratic rights in third world countries.

      (Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)
      Social-democracy.

      About as good as we're going to get.
      There can only be social democracies in a minority of countries for the reasons I outlined above. Also, you never replied to my post about anarchism
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      (Original post by joebro)
      the means of production remain in the hands of the bourgeoise, yes, but you have to consider the rest - once of the essential points in Marx is that he predicts revolution when the proletariat become aware of their exploitation. welfare reforms slow that down, or stop it completely, which is why there is not an example in the world of where Marxism has happened as Marx described it
      For a start the latter pre-supposes the former holds any truth, nevermind about holding truth in of itself. But yes, reformism appeases the masses, i wouldn't claim otherwise, however this does not achieve any sort of Marxian end or solution to the ills of capitalism i.e. the alienation of labour, one of the most egregious aspects of capitalism, continues, in a state likely worse than ever
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      Capitalism seems to be unique however in that it is the first form of human civilisation which is genuinely capable of destoying, impoverishing and poisoning the environment on a global scale which threatens the very world we need to live in.
      You are usually very well informed. However that is *******s. Communism is just as able to cause enviromental damage eg Aral Sea.

      The only reason that capitalism threatens Earth while other social structures have not is that in the so called age of capitalism humans have become very powerful. Any ofcourse the greatest threat to the enviroment China is a commuist nation.
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      (Original post by turn and fall)
      You are usually very well informed. However that is *******s. Communism is just as able to cause enviromental damage eg Aral Sea.

      The only reason that capitalism threatens Earth while other social structures have not is that in the so called age of capitalism humans have become very powerful. Any ofcourse the greatest threat to the enviroment China is a commuist nation.
      That's like saying the National Socialist Workers Party is socialist. Anyway, China can hardly be blamed of environmental damage when it's building the Great Green Wall and the largest HEP dam in the world. Token gestures, I'm sure, but effective nonetheless.
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      (Original post by Aj12)
      It exploits workers and the planet, the rich mainly benefit and in most cases own the means of production ect.
      Anyone else feel the same?
      yeah kind of, but I much prefer Rousseau
      have you read any of his work? about the general will?
      amazing concept, (except for the women not being included as citizens )
      and looks great on paper, but too bad it'll never work practically....
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      (Original post by lifeonmars)
      yeah kind of, but I much prefer Rousseau
      have you read any of his work? about the general will?
      amazing concept, (except for the women not being included as citizens )
      and looks great on paper, but too bad it'll never work practically....
      Just reading the social contract now actually
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      (Original post by ANARCHY__)
      That's like saying the National Socialist Workers Party is socialist. Anyway, China can hardly be blamed of environmental damage when it's building the Great Green Wall and the largest HEP dam in the world. Token gestures, I'm sure, but effective nonetheless.

      I said threat.
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        (Original post by turn and fall)
        You are usually very well informed. However that is *******s. Communism is just as able to cause enviromental damage eg Aral Sea.

        The only reason that capitalism threatens Earth while other social structures have not is that in the so called age of capitalism humans have become very powerful. Any ofcourse the greatest threat to the enviroment China is a commuist nation.
        Capitalism is centrally dependent on a culture of consumerism and economic growth, whereas communism, ultimately, isn't. Capitalism seeks to supply the most extravagant and vulgar of desires, no matter how environmentally destructive, because profit is the only concern, communism is about satisfying basic human needs. I won't argue over the extent to which former soviet states were often oblivious to environmental issues (in the same way capitalist ones have been) but let's not throw baby out with bathwater here. And you don't do yourself any favours by describing China as communist, they have for some time been pursuing a capitalist agenda. State-supervised capitalism is still capitalism.
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        (Original post by Oswy)
        Capitalism is centrally dependent on a culture of consumerism and economic growth, whereas communism, ultimately, isn't. Capitalism seeks to supply the most extravagant and vulgar of desires, no matter how environmentally destructive, because profit is the only concern, communism is about satisfying basic human needs. I won't argue over the extent to which former soviet states were often oblivious to environmental issues (in the same way capitalist ones have been) but let's not throw baby out with bathwater here. And you don't do yourself any favours by describing China as communist, they have for some time been pursuing a capitalist agenda. State-supervised capitalism is still capitalism.
        Not only that: they have also allowed for a freer market economy for some time now. It is the social realm they intervene in the most (and ironically, morally and practically the area a government should intervene in the very least).
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        most of what marx says is a load of **** imo, but there are some really astute observations that were so far ahead of his time that its pretty amazing. but i still disagree with a lot of what he thinks, much like i do with other great thinkers such as freud
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        (Original post by turn and fall)
        I said threat.
        That doesn't change my point. You could quite easily say Greenpeace is a threat to the environment too. You can say the same thing of the 'great' Western 'democracies' too. Just depends on how you look at it.
       
       
       
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