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D-Day - 9th December, London - This is the LAST MARCH before voting! MAKE IT BIG!!!!! Watch

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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Hope you realise you have no political support bar the BNP who are the only party offering free education.

    Im sorry but your choice is the Tory rise or the Labour Grad Tax. Thats it.
    <3
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    THe original post reminds me of promotional flyers and posters for weekend raves and nightclubbing

    Head over to On and Off piccadily Circus this Saturday December 4th 2010! tickets are limited. Last weekend before the club closes for the festive season. BE THERE
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    There should be greater numbers this time and greater results/
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    (Original post by Jingers)
    I don't want *******s like these getting into university...

    http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/video...f80blFTv20c1tz

    Almost everyone in that video sounded like some sort of Chav. I highly doubt they would ever go to university.
    ****ing morons, the lot of 'em.

    How does attacking bus shelters? or police cars help anything. Its just more taxpayers money wasted.
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    (Original post by anoif_)
    What alternative? I'm genuinely interested to hear I just really don't think protests are the way forward - these people have tarred all students with the same brush. The public, nor the government, have taken them seriously and we now look like immature anarchists who actually deserve to pay so much money. That's the general view now because violence doesn't actually solve anything.

    I'm not coming from a point of view where my family are elitist and rich and whilst I do sympathise with students who are going to have to pay these higher fees, I can understand why they have been introduced.

    And my second point was addressed to the OP, not those going to the protest in general
    Cool. So there are a number of alternatives to this kind of levy on students. The first one is to entirely subsidise university places. I guess some people would say that this is virtually impossible given the number of people applying. If you take a look at Scotland, which I'd say has relatively the same amount of applicants in accordance with its own economy, or even Wales, you'll see examples of how this explanation has been defied. If this wasn't the case, as I don't know the intricacies of the situation in Wales and Scotland, then you need to reduce applicants.

    Some people would say the current measure does that and it's correct but it's doing it in the wrong way; people should be discouraged from university in relation to their relative merit. So someone who got 4 Bs in the worst school in country should be on a par with someone who got, let's say, 4 A*s from Eton. As well as that, you should be providing viable alternatives for people who can't get into university and that way, more people benefit from the education system. Yes, there will be some people who are unfortunate but that's a problem of anything I'm afraid and it would be great if it wasn't the case but for now, all we can do is stem the problems as much as possible.

    Violence sometimes is misused, yeah but then it's just where each individual draws the line. I'm guessing people feel they need to be violent because no one would listen otherwise. Malcolm X certainly did and so did Mandela to an extent. I'm not going to condemn or condone their actions but I think politicians should see past it and understand why people felt the need to get violent in the first place, and it's not going to be resolved by blaming the people who were involved because that's not the root cause.

    I can't understand why these fees have been introduced at all. More often than not, measures aren't introduced for economic sense but political sense. It seems the fee hike was introduced for political sense. Because, economically, how is it logical to burden the subsequent generation with lingering debt to resolve the problems that have been brought about by the previous one? Morally, I'd also disagree with it for much the same reason; what have students done to contribute to the deficit and therefore, why should they be taxed?

    Hope that's what you were looking for in a response.

    ANARCHY__
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    The saddest thing about this is that students are radicalised only when it hits them in the pocket.

    We all soon forgot about Iraq, Afghanistan and any other important issues. This is nothing more than a temper tantrum.

    The government will ignore you. A u-turn would make their lives 10x more difficult.
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    (Original post by sete)
    This is untrue, why state rubbish you have plucked from the air?

    Here, this is what the general public think about the rise in tuition fees...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...me_02_12_2010/

    Watch from about 10mins too 30mins.

    You might be surprised to see most people are on the side of the students, and infact these protest are causing massive doubts in the minds of Lib dem mp's. With various senior ministers having already committed to voting against the proposals.

    It might seem improbable, but its not impossible that this bill can still be defeated.
    It's not rubbish 'plucked from the air' but I admit it was a generalisation. Whilst I see your point that many of those featured in Question Time do disagree with the fees, what I was trying to say is that it's as a result of violence that people think this about students now. You're right in the fact that many do not support the government's decision but similarly find it hard to support students after these protests/riots/whatever you want to call them.


    (Original post by danny111)
    What general view? Stop making up things.

    And bit ironic saying that violence doesn't solve anything and yet human history is dominated by wars.

    No wonder you aren't going if you are so selfish. If you walk past a stranger who is dying on the roadside would you just walk past them? Apparently people do so would not be surprised if you did, given what happened to that old man who almost died of hypothermia. Pathetic attitude towards life and others.

    + surely the fact that fees don't even affect us makes our point stronger, and that we aren't simply protesting because we don't want to pay. we are protesting because we believe it is wrong.
    You're deluded by the grandeur of this entire thing. You can't compare this to a war nor can you compare walking past somebody dying and not going to a thinly-veiled riot. This fee-hike is not a life or death situation, simply an annoyance that has become students' most popular bandwagon.


    (Original post by ANARCHY__)
    Cool. So there are a number of alternatives to this kind of levy on students. The first one is to entirely subsidise university places. I guess some people would say that this is virtually impossible given the number of people applying. If you take a look at Scotland, which I'd say has relatively the same amount of applicants in accordance with its own economy, or even Wales, you'll see examples of how this explanation has been defied. If this wasn't the case, as I don't know the intricacies of the situation in Wales and Scotland, then you need to reduce applicants.

    Some people would say the current measure does that and it's correct but it's doing it in the wrong way; people should be discouraged from university in relation to their relative merit. So someone who got 4 Bs in the worst school in country should be on a par with someone who got, let's say, 4 A*s from Eton. As well as that, you should be providing viable alternatives for people who can't get into university and that way, more people benefit from the education system. Yes, there will be some people who are unfortunate but that's a problem of anything I'm afraid and it would be great if it wasn't the case but for now, all we can do is stem the problems as much as possible.

    Violence sometimes is misused, yeah but then it's just where each individual draws the line. I'm guessing people feel they need to be violent because no one would listen otherwise. Malcolm X certainly did and so did Mandela to an extent. I'm not going to condemn or condone their actions but I think politicians should see past it and understand why people felt the need to get violent in the first place, and it's not going to be resolved by blaming the people who were involved because that's not the root cause.

    I can't understand why these fees have been introduced at all. More often than not, measures aren't introduced for economic sense but political sense. It seems the fee hike was introduced for political sense. Because, economically, how is it logical to burden the subsequent generation with lingering debt to resolve the problems that have been brought about by the previous one? Morally, I'd also disagree with it for much the same reason; what have students done to contribute to the deficit and therefore, why should they be taxed?

    Hope that's what you were looking for in a response.

    ANARCHY__
    Thanks for your response. I'm part of those people who think entire subsidisation would be impossible because, as you say, nobody would be discouraged from university, despite it not being the right path for them. However, I think you make a valid point in your solution to this, about relating grades to situation. And you're right about needing to provide viable alternatives.

    Similarly, I can see why violence may be deemed necessary but I think that's what's at the core of the problems here. Had the protests been peaceful, I think the vast majority of the public would have agreed with the stand they were taking, as it's been pointed out that the actual resistence has a lot of support.

    I think there is some economic sense in the proposals because we can't sustain the huge numbers of students going to university on the current fees, though I agree with your point that it seems very unfair.

    Thank you for an intellectual answer that has actually (if not changed!) then adapted my view. Better than the 'you're just selfish' responses I've got
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    (Original post by spocckka)
    wait, why do people think they deserve something for nothing?
    Its not a case of getting somthing for nothing, WTF do the taxes our parents have paid their entire working lives go on?

    The politicians who have got our country in this ****hole benifited from a free education, so why not us? and as even more of a spit in the face why should we pay 3x more, what more are we getting for the extra 6 grand?
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    (Original post by anoif_)
    Thanks for your response. I'm part of those people who think entire subsidisation would be impossible because, as you say, nobody would be discouraged from university, despite it not being the right path for them. However, I think you make a valid point in your solution to this, about relating grades to situation. And you're right about needing to provide viable alternatives.

    Similarly, I can see why violence may be deemed necessary but I think that's what's at the core of the problems here. Had the protests been peaceful, I think the vast majority of the public would have agreed with the stand they were taking, as it's been pointed out that the actual resistence has a lot of support.

    I think there is some economic sense in the proposals because we can't sustain the huge numbers of students going to university on the current fees, though I agree with your point that it seems very unfair.

    Thank you for an intellectual answer that has actually (if not changed!) then adapted my view. Better than the 'you're just selfish' responses I've got
    That's alright. I'm glad you found my answer informative and it changed your view a little or gave you a different perspective to take a look at. I agree with you that it's not helpful or very productive to just say the stock 'you're just selfish' line and it's a shame some people still resort to it.

    As you say, people wouldn't be discouraged from applying to university if the entire thing was subsidised. However, to compensate for that, you would simply lower the number of people applying, as I said, through relative grade boundaries for the individual's situation. That way, the people who go to university get an education, the people who don't get educated elsewhere (in a place of equal merit and reputation) and overall, you should have a more cohesive society.

    I agree that the public do view the protests in a bad light but that's mainly because of the media spin on it. If the BBC - for example - ran a line saying that these students, out of sheer desperation were forced to commit violent acts and give interviews of people agreeing with that, coupled with the cold weather and the police kettling, you could quite easily swing people's opinion the other way.

    ANARCHY__
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      (Original post by spocckka)
      wait, why do people think they deserve something for nothing?
      Why is it reasonable for them to be lied to? To have their vote exploited? Remember, the Lib Dems had this in the ringer pre the election poll.

      I dont mind FAIR fees. Greed from the government is hardly fair. Everyone in favour rather worryingly keeps harping on about the barrier going up to 21 grand. Yes thats a 40% rise, but remember fees are going up 273%
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      All I have to say is that you are lucky to be born in a wonderful country and the world does NOT owe you a living or a single penny!

      Its sad but true!
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      (Original post by spocckka)
      wait, why do people think they deserve something for nothing?
      I don't think anyone is suggesting students deserve something for nothing, but that education costs should be reasonable and that educated people benefit the whole country and economy, not just the individual. Major international companies need to recruit talent.

      The public and MPs are taking note of the protests. There are news stories every day about the protests. The protests are making a public point.

      I'm going to make every effort to be there for the final protest
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      (Original post by ANARCHY__)
      That's alright. I'm glad you found my answer informative and it changed your view a little or gave you a different perspective to take a look at. I agree with you that it's not helpful or very productive to just say the stock 'you're just selfish' line and it's a shame some people still resort to it.

      As you say, people wouldn't be discouraged from applying to university if the entire thing was subsidised. However, to compensate for that, you would simply lower the number of people applying, as I said, through relative grade boundaries for the individual's situation. That way, the people who go to university get an education, the people who don't get educated elsewhere (in a place of equal merit and reputation) and overall, you should have a more cohesive society.

      I agree that the public do view the protests in a bad light but that's mainly because of the media spin on it. If the BBC - for example - ran a line saying that these students, out of sheer desperation were forced to commit violent acts and give interviews of people agreeing with that, coupled with the cold weather and the police kettling, you could quite easily swing people's opinion the other way.

      ANARCHY__
      Yeah, I admittedly did come over a bit selfish but I got told I'd walk past somebody dying in the street which I thought was a bit harsh. I think the relative grade boundaries is a really good idea, it makes sense and encourages equality.

      And your point about the media too, it's a huge influence so maybe if it did put a more positive spin on the protests people would think differently.
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      lol, hooray for starting university in 2011. :sexface:

      Umad, high fee payers? :sexface:

      Less competition in the future :sexface:
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      :sexface:
      • Thread Starter
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      (Original post by No Future)
      I don't think anyone is suggesting students deserve something for nothing, but that education costs should be reasonable and that educated people benefit the whole country and economy, not just the individual. Major international companies need to recruit talent.

      The public and MPs are taking note of the protests. There are news stories every day about the protests. The protests are making a public point.

      I'm going to make every effort to be there for the final protest

      Absolutely true!

      Also, we've got 8 people coming from as far as Belfast to join this protest!
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      (Original post by anoif_)
      Yeah, I admittedly did come over a bit selfish but I got told I'd walk past somebody dying in the street which I thought was a bit harsh. I think the relative grade boundaries is a really good idea, it makes sense and encourages equality.

      And your point about the media too, it's a huge influence so maybe if it did put a more positive spin on the protests people would think differently.
      Ah, you don't seem so selfish to me. I'm glad we're agreeing on a number of points. It's nice to exchange ideas with another person.

      It is a shame that media basically spin whatever line they want. Well, I'd prefer if there wasn't an overall 'party line' for the journalists to stick but I guess you can't enforce that. The Independent, I think, is closest to achieving it.

      And hey, if you have any more general points about my views or something like that, feel free to ask any of the guys in here: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=1425337 although the debate does get a little intellectual at times.

      ANARCHY__
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        (Original post by loosebruce)
        all i have to say is that you are lucky to be born in a wonderful country and the world does not owe you a living or a single penny!

        its sad but true!
        which is why we pay bleeding fees in the first place
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        Ok I think all these arguments are fair enough, people will be angry that they have to pay more. But the simple fact of the matter is that the money has to come from somewhere. He government spends billions on universities, it is one place where they have scope to save. The repayments do have to come from somewhere.

        Yes it can be said that the people who got us into the mess (city bankers apparently) should pay back what they've lost. But you cannot have a system whereby people are taxed based on the perception of how respectable their jobs are. Higher earners pay more anyway.
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          But then why should it not be gradual - The Lib Dems chastise Labour continually to this day about their proposed 25% cut in Uni funding by the government - they are cutting 80%?

          Why should students pay for government GREED? If it should go up then the most it should go up by is the 40% barrier the repayment threshold has been risen - now thats a FAIR rise. Not that I endorse it but if they are rising it then that should be the MAXIMUM they should be allowed to rise it, rather than sneaking a 273% hike on fees.
         
         
         
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