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UK schools 'fall behind Estonia and Slovenia', says OECD Watch

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    (Original post by KingofSpades)
    obviously. We get bilingual European state school students who can get A's after 3 months of the course. Then we have most english who can't fit a sentence together
    I agree. Some people in England just can't be bothered, people in countries such as China learn much more and harder things.
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    (Original post by Officer Dibble)
    If that is the case, shouldn't we be asking ourselves why our education system hasn't improved at the same rate?

    Education can only get to a certain standard.

    Inverse square law anyone?

    As we approach the ceiling in terms of academic performance, every country is gonna converge towards that same point.
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    tbh it bureaucracy and liberalism have had a fair part in the decline. Bring back the cane
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    (Original post by SoaringStar)
    Building more grammar schools won't do much since it will mainly be families who can afford to send their children to private tutoring for admissions tests - would be better if they were tested on information that everybody can revise and practise rather than only the wealthier families.

    My opinion - meh.
    I agree. Wohooo, I'm from Liverpool too.
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    (Original post by robinson999)
    how do you pick whos the brightest and at what age
    Ain't got a clue.
    i don't like picking the "brightest" student to go here or there because where do you stop, we shouldn't have to pick, we should have the greatest education system in the world,
    Yes we should and I think part of that is academic selection as well as the reversing of standardised testing and standardised curricula. Perhaps more divergent thinking?

    Education should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for it's citizens. JUST LIKE? NATIONAL DEFENCE
    The Education budget has been ballooned by the past Labour government and yet, no real results were achieved compared to the level of funding put in. Evidently money isn't the sole issue. The education system has enough money, but it isn't being utilised effectively.

    Defence is the first priority of any government. It is the true realm of government.
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    How many of these schools have been given good grades by Ofsted?
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    Ain't got a clue.


    Yes we should and I think part of that is academic selection as well as the reversing of standardised testing and standardised curricula. Perhaps more divergent thinking?



    The Education budget has been ballooned by the past Labour government and yet, no real results were achieved compared to the level of funding put in. Evidently money isn't the sole issue. The education system has enough money, but it isn't being utilised effectively.

    Defence is the first priority of any government. It is the true realm of government.
    So you think that the ''dumb'' ones should just not have a chance in life, simply because they are not as smart? Why should they not get a decent education?
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      (Original post by Barden)
      TBF, the 11+ exam is basically an IQ test - no amount of tutoring will help you pass it (you have to get high marks across the board, so even if one is tutored for the maths paper, one still needs to be able to pass verbal and non-verbal reasoning to a high standard)
      Do you have any evidence whatsoever for that claim?...

      (Heck, do you even have any evidence that those who engage in deliberate practice of IQ tests will not perform better over time?)
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      (Original post by Teaddict)
      I have never understood these arguments against educational elitism. I personally think some academic institutions should be elitist in that they only accept the most brightest students. This is why I supported the assisted places scheme which Labour abolished.

      I think government should help send the brightest students from poor background to the best educational institutions such as public schools. This is why I support grammar schools - academic selection is a good thing.

      Academic selection in schools, in my view, will lead to a situation where those academically bright and those selective schools will be in a great position which means the government can focus entirely on helping the less bright maybe through technical colleges, vocational training... I am sure we can learn from countries like Finland and Sweden about helping the less academically bright.
      The thing is though, is that intelligence' seems to be measured in a quantitative, rather than qualitative way. For example, when I was 10 i managed to get into the top 5% in the 11+ exams in my borough, but that is only because both my parents basically tutored me every night as both are educated. I spent last summer tutoring kids from poor backgrounds for their 11+, of which only half passed, for the reason that none of them could afford tuition, nor could they seek help from their parents. The funny thing is, none of those kids are stupid. However, because they will now go to their ****ty local comp, not be encouraged in the way middle class families do, they will end up wasting that intelligence. Again, they will be ostracised by the class system, and stuck in an insitution of 'idiots', and the apartheid between the 'clever' and the 'stupid' will continue. It is bull****, because it basically conveys a notion that your future is pretty much based on maths and verbal reasoning exams, as opposed to actual intelligence, or capability.

      a toyed idea (at least in my home city of vancouver) is changing the cirriculum. I always thought it might be interesting for there to be more practical lessons, but also lessons that encourage individual thought, rather than silly citizenship courses.
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      (Original post by Kolya)
      Do you have any evidence whatsoever for that claim?...

      (Heck, do you even have any evidence that those who engage in deliberate practice of IQ tests will not perform better over time?)

      Having taken it myself, as well as IQ tests, I can tell you that they are one and the same.
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      Since 2000 to now;

      from 7th to 25th place in reading;
      from 8th to 27th place in maths;
      from 4th to 16th in science.

      How can you support Labour? How?
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      University is where it's at, so as long as we hold international sovereignty in this sector all goes well.
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      (Original post by Barden)
      Surprise surprise, nobody is considering that maybe a few other countries' educational standards have just got markedly better, rather than ours getting worse...

      Labour education, you can't beat it....

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        (Original post by Barden)
        Having taken it myself, as well as IQ tests, I can tell you that they are one and the same.
        I'm not asking for a comparison. I'm asking for evidence that deliberate practice of comparable problems will not improve your scores, be it on the 11+ or on IQ tests.
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        Glad to see Norway isn't doing too bad! The results better than last time,which is nice.
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        (Original post by Kolya)
        I'm not asking for a comparison. I'm asking for evidence that deliberate practice of comparable problems will not improve your scores, be it on the 11+ or on IQ tests.

        I have better things to do than back up my assertions on TSR, however do you have any evidence to the contrary of what I claimed?
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        I'm not suprised the education system in Estonia and Slovenia is great. And their work ethic is even greater.

        How dare you look down upon these great nations!
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        (Original post by robinson999)
        we should have academic selection without having a clue ( i can let that pass cos we are not education people who have all the facts and figures in front of us)
        ffs robinson... Don't mix up comments I have made.

        We should have academic selection. What I said I ain't got a clue about is how we go about funding poorer but bright students because as you say, why should 1 mark prevent a bright child's potential.

        However, in saying that, it would be simpler to do the whole thing as academic selection is done now. That poorer students who are proved capable by the existing criteria receiving the funding.

        my views on testing as i go through education is getting more negative, a student can work there butt off all year and fail due to a poor exam, or a lazy student can get an A due to turning in on during exams
        Indeed. This is why I don't like exams. It is also the case that some very intelligent students aren't able to do exams whilst the content of the subject is easy for them.

        The idea that a qualification should be based on exam technique is outrageous.

        maybe performance-based learning and assessment, or forms off assessment though out the year, keep the student on their toes, in place of one big final exam at the end of the year, its a lot of stress and pressure we place on young student, than we they do well, we don't hear oh well done, we hear oh exams are getting easier, back in my day that A would of been a F all that bull
        Perhaps. I am more inclined to favour assessments, coursework etc than an exam.

        curricula that is more relate to today maybe, if a student is having or dislikes maths but love football, give them football based maths problem, if this team has so many point and there are 3 games left how many do they need to stay up, thats maths
        I think this misses the point because it doesn't address the curriculum but ways in which teachers can teach it. I have opposition to a standardised curriculum in principle.



        the education budget has had to balloon
        Why? The extra funding put in has hardly achieved anything if we cannot compete internationally.

        do we really want to go back to the poorly funded stages of the government before that, we have more students, more staying in education longer, we have more teachers, smaller class sizes, the cost pre student has gone but, the building of new schools which if you was to see some of them is long over due, better equipment in school
        The cost of education has ballooned but the results haven't followed. There has been no real improvement for the amount that has been put in. Now I am not suggesting we wipe all the funding away, but I do think we should look at why this money hasn't been utilised properly.

        defence should be 3rd in the list really, we don't need to waste money, the best gun around cost about £30 and has 3 moving parts, my waste billion on a high tech gun that fails in the sand
        The Ministry of Defence is inefficient granted, but the money made from efficiencies should be reinvested.
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          (Original post by Barden)
          I have better things to do than back up my assertions on TSR, however do you have any evidence to the contrary of what I claimed?
          It was you who made the claim in the first place, not me. It's a pretty shallow debate if it just involves people making concrete claims and then, when asked to support their claims, just saying "but do you have evidence otherwise?". If there's no evidence either way, one should remain undecided on the issue. It's irrational to find no evidence either way and then to just believe whatever the hell you want to believe. Maybe your style is more suited to the 'Chat' forum?

          Anyway, as it so happens, I can provide evidence that IQ is easily manipulated. Look at this study (or the new scientist article discussing it). A basic mental exercise led to a significant increase in performance on IQ tests. (Even the 'dissenting voice' in the article said that the problem with the study was that it was a "Err, well duh!" conclusion: "Not everyone is impressed. Robert Plomin, at the Institute of Psychiatry in London, says that no serious intelligence researchers consider Gf "immutable", as the paper suggests."

          So if, as a tutor, I simply get a student to play the game every day for months, and your claim about 11+/IQ tests being the same is true, then those students will be in a much better position to pass the 11+ than they otherwise would have been. And of course: the educated parent who knows this, and wants to get their child into a grammar school, will be able to give their child a significant advantage over children with parents who don't happen to look on the web for research in cognitive neuroscience. Is that the kind of system you want?

          In my opinion, it not a good system. Either the repetitive mental exercise is simply a way to game the system, or it actually has intellectual/educational value. If the former: we are allowing informed parents to play the system to get their child into a grammar school. If the latter: why aren't they doing the exercise in state schools (rather than failing state school students without informed parents)?
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          (Original post by Teaddict)
          I have never understood these arguments against educational elitism. I personally think some academic institutions should be elitist in that they only accept the most brightest students. This is why I supported the assisted places scheme which Labour abolished.

          I think government should help send the brightest students from poor background to the best educational institutions such as public schools. This is why I support grammar schools - academic selection is a good thing.

          Academic selection in schools, in my view, will lead to a situation where those academically bright and those selective schools will be in a great position which means the government can focus entirely on helping the less bright maybe through technical colleges, vocational training... I am sure we can learn from countries like Finland and Sweden about helping the less academically bright.
          I agree, social mobility went down drastically under the Labour government, Michael Gove has some excellent proposals and I look forward to seeing them implemented. Before I start getting neg rep for this I want to state that I am politcally neutral, I am only interested in which ever policy I think will work.
         
         
         
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