Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

A question of belief (In God) Watch

  • View Poll Results: Is life random?
    Yes
    1
    50.00%
    No
    1
    50.00%

    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tinshed)
    this is a dumb ass question and statement. evolution doesn't mean life is random and if you believe in science you can also believe in God. and why do you care what other people think? who cares. if people cared less there would be less argument over this world wide.
    i agree that one can believe in both God and science. not eveyrone see's it that way though.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mannix99)
    But then, what's the point? If God didn't create mankind, what legitimacy can he have?
    No one has said God didn't create mankind. Just that he did it through guiding evolution.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mannix99)
    Well, you're playing with words.
    To say that evolution is not random because of the natural selection is like saying that to play the lottery is not random because someone has picked up the right numbers...
    No it's not the same. Lottery numbers are picked randomly (I guess you could say this is like mutation although as I have said mutation is a bit less random) - but the money is not awarded randomly, the money is awarded to the person with the right numbers.

    It might sound like semantics but it isn't. if natural selection was random then having advantageous mutations wouldn't matter - yours chances of survival would be equal to any other individual.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BioSam)
    No it's not the same. Lottery numbers are picked randomly (I guess you could say this is like mutation although as I have said mutation is a bit less random) - but the money is not awarded randomly, the money is awarded to the person with the right numbers.
    So you're saying that because the money is awarded to the person with the right numbers, the lottery is not a game of chance?
    The fact there is a little aspect of determinism in this game doesn't matter: it's still a game that is governed by chance. This is the main aspect. For evolution, not only the mutations are random, but the event selecting these mutations are too, random. Like for the lottery, we cannot predict evolution. Therefore it's truly random.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aula)
    No one has said God didn't create mankind. Just that he did it through guiding evolution.
    Ok, sorry.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mannix99)
    So you're saying that because the money is awarded to the person with the right numbers, the lottery is not a game of chance?
    The fact there is a little aspect of determinism in this game doesn't matter: it's still a game that is governed by chance. This is the main aspect. For evolution, not only the mutations are random, but the event selecting these mutations are too, random. Like for the lottery, we cannot predict evolution. Therefore it's truly random.
    Natural selection isn't a "little aspect" though. It is (one of) the key forces that drives evolution!

    It cannot be predicted, you're right, but unpredictable doesn't mean random.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BioSam)
    Natural selection isn't a "little aspect" though. It is (one of) the key forces that drives evolution!
    Natural selection is not a force.
    (Original post by BioSam)
    It cannot be predicted, you're right, but unpredictable doesn't mean random.
    Well, then it's back to fight about words. Please could you to tell me then what do you mean by "random"?
    I don't use this word in the absolute sens (such as the one used in quantum mechanics) but simply to describe a system that cannot be predicted (it's not feasible). The lottery is random for example. If you throw 10 marbles from the Big-Ben their trajectory once on the pavement are going to be random. This is what I mean by random: something that 1) don't have a purpose and 2) can't be predicted.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mannix99)
    Natural selection is not a force.
    :confused: Obviously it's not a force in the sense that physicists use the word. I meant force as in 'effect' or 'influence' - it is a big contributor to evolution

    Well, then it's back to fight about words. Please could you to tell me then what do you mean by "random"?
    I take random to mean that every possible outcome has equal probability.

    I don't use this word in the absolute sens (such as the one used in quantum mechanics) but simply to describe a system that cannot be predicted (it's not feasible). The lottery is random for example. If you throw 10 marbles from the Big-Ben their trajectory once on the pavement are going to be random. This is what I mean by random: something that 1) don't have a purpose and 2) can't be predicted.
    Well evolution certainly doesn't have a purpose, but I'm sure most evolutionary biologists would agree that natural selection is non-random (so they can't be using your definition). Although you could not predict the entire trajectory of evolution, I suppose natural selection is predictable in an isolated scenario - e.g. 300 individuals in a lake, 30 can swim, which do you predict will survive?

    There is an entirely separate process based on chance - genetic drift. But natural selection is considered non-random.

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_32
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Natural selection is the very opposite of random.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Personally, I believe that God has a plan for us all.
    But that's just my belief, everyone is entitled to one of those.
    • TSR Community Team
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jkjkjk)
    Do you think life is random?


    I think that if you believe in God you should believe life is not random (everything happens for a reason.

    However if you believe in Science ... (like evolution) you must believe that life is random.

    U?

    Thanks
    I'm with you on the life not being random if you believe in God.

    However, science isn't a belief. It's something which aims to describe the world we live in. You can't argue with observations about what we see around us.

    I also don't get why science means things have to be random. If anything, science allows us, to an extent, to see why things happen through the interaction of particles and forces...so saying much of what we see is not random (though one can accept science and still 'believe' the big questions like the formation of the universe were random. But whilst the formation of the universe is covered by science, science has not yet proved what happened there and only have theories giving ideas of what may have happened.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Lifes isn't random I believe that there is definately a creator or a higher power out there, that may sound weird to some people. But there is so many unanswered questions out there that science cannot answer logically. As humans we can only think to a certain extent, which means we cannot know everything out there. People can say, "oh you're listening to a book from thousands of years ago" well what would be the point in a higher power if there wasn't any doubts about it? you'd go throughout your life believing in God because you know he exist's thus eliminating the idea that life is a test of faith which is demonstrated with the use of various conundrums and questions about our place within the universe.

    Anyway that's my thought's on the matter, I don't want to get involved in another flame war with an atheist.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tinshed)
    this is a dumb ass question and statement. evolution doesn't mean life is random and if you believe in science you can also believe in God. and why do you care what other people think? who cares. if people cared less there would be less argument over this world wide.
    Well thats nice.
    1) I hope your not a scientist or in a position of importance because ("if people cared less there would be less argument over this world wide") this is very stupid thing to say as people would start to believe they are always right.

    2) Why did you write on this thread if you 'DON'T CARE'

    3) "why do you care what other people think?" well because I want to know where my argument if flawed (and now it see it is flawed change it and come up with a new theory) so actually even you are helping me even though you 'DON'T CARE'

    4) "evolution doesn't mean life is random" I still believe that this statement is wrong and some of the threads above outline the reasons why

    Thanks
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Gemma :)!)
    Personally, I believe that God has a plan for us all.
    But that's just my belief, everyone is entitled to one of those.
    Pleasant bloke/thing/whatever.

    Spoiler:
    Show


    Etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jkjkjk)
    Do you think life is random?


    I think that if you believe in God you should believe life is not random (everything happens for a reason.

    However if you believe in Science ... (like evolution) you must believe that life is random.

    U?

    Thanks
    Actually it is impossible for there ever to be a random event/ For this to occur then for example I should be able to jump off the empire state building and die then try it again the second time and in the exact same cicumcstances be fine.

    Also science does not mean you cannot believe in God as well.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I believe that males have testosterone and females have Oestrogen hence life is random......Hmmm sort it out!
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jkjkjk)
    Well thats nice.
    1) I hope your not a scientist or in a position of importance because ("if people cared less there would be less argument over this world wide") this is very stupid thing to say as people would start to believe they are always right.

    2) Why did you write on this thread if you 'DON'T CARE'

    3) "why do you care what other people think?" well because I want to know where my argument if flawed (and now it see it is flawed change it and come up with a new theory) so actually even you are helping me even though you 'DON'T CARE'

    4) "evolution doesn't mean life is random" I still believe that this statement is wrong and some of the threads above outline the reasons why

    Thanks
    yes I am a scientist, I study nuclear astrophysics and doing quite well in my degree. I believe in god but in a different way to everyone else I have spoken to. Too many people have tried to convert me to their religion and have argued with me on this subject until blue in the face. This is why I said if people cared less about what everyone else believes there would be less arguing over this world wide. I don't believe people would start assuming they are right all the time but instead they would be willing to have a PEACEFUL discussion with an open mind not like some religious fanatics I have come across and hopefully they will respect other people's beliefs.

    You made a very ignorant statement in your opening post. Can't really say much more to that.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    What newspaper do you read/prefer?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.