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I'm starting to turn against the EU. Watch

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    (Original post by loafer)
    The more you learn about the EU - the more that you will hate it.

    There is a self-perpetuating bureaucracy in the EU that operates in its own self interest - unaccountably taking more and more political and legal power away from the individual member states and consolidating it into the hands of anonymous politicians from countries with less power than the mayor of London.

    I love Europe, I ****ing love Europeans - the French, Germans, Italians... I am a europhile. BUT I hate EU as an organisation; it is undemocratic, it is unaccountable, a ever increasingly gigantic amount of power is wielded by anonymous bureaucrats who barely anyone has heard of and nobody has elected.

    I wonder how many people on the street could name the EU President...

    Imagine if we had joined the Euro - it is very likely that we would now be facing the same fate as Ireland, Greece or Spain. If I ever give credit to Blair or Brown - it would be for keeping us out of that disgrace. The EU and Euro is like a big experiment, it has just been proven that you can't impose a single currency over many politically, socially and economically distinct countries, so the solution is further political integration, which enables more legal integration, which enables endless more power taken from our remarkably successful island and given to european socialists and euro-nationalists.

    47% would vote for the UK to leave the EU, according to YouGov, only 33% would vote for us to stay part of it.
    (http://today.yougov.co.uk/politics/eu-referendum)
    Well quite the opposite really. My understanding of economics is basic at best and so I will not try and defend it on that point. I remain indifferent about the EU, although I like the fact that it makes it easier for us to travel to these other countries. Nonetheless, I do get a bit bored with people describing it as though it were some separate entity, devoid of any British influence. The executive is heavily bound by the Parliament which is made up by the MEPs that we vote for. These MEPs have the power to dissolve the Commission or bar its appointment (of which member states have put forward the candidates for anyway). The main legislative think tank is made up of MPs from the relevant department of the Member States that is being discussed, ie Minister for Agriculture for Agricultural issues. We have the same influence over it as other countries (even more as we are one of the few countries that has 2 commissioners as opposed to 1, even though admittedly this part of the EU is looking after the interests of the EU as a whole). Even so, the power is balanced over the various parts of the EU and the part that we directly control (even though it can be said we also vote on the members of the Council through domestic elections) in the way of MEPs even I believe vote on the total EU budget. It may be annoying how a few issues such as the prisoner vote are not left to our own Government, but as far as I can see these are just a few bad apples in an otherwise healthy crop.

    As for the Yougov polls, I am sure a fair few people have their opinions of the EU shaped on misleading articles such as the Daily Express's recent story on how the EU plans to fund violent and pornographic films. This was of course false as was the recent nonsense about being forced to change the way we measure eggs.

    I dont see how the fact that many everyday people dont know about many prominent EU politicians discredits the organisation? We only know what we read about, and if peoples daily dose of politics is restricted to the paper that they read which omits any mention of such politicians apart from when they mock them, then it is no doubt that no-one knows about them. I am sure that there are many hard working and distinguish politicians behind the scenes who receive no recognition for their work.

    Yes, I understand the quip about bureaucracy, but you also moan about an alleged authoritarian element of the EU, which the way I see it the numerous levels and parts of the EU are aimed at reducing any such authoritarian nature and to distribute power equally as possible amongst the people of each state as well as the leaders of each state.
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    Completely agree with you.

    I don't understand how the need for intra-EU trade requires a political and economic union! As we have seen, any attempt at economic union will fail unless you have a bailout facility of sorts around. That just isn't right!

    A system that is good shouldn't need a bailout facility. That the Euro does shows it isn't good.

    Seriously, if the EU ever tried to make itself a state in its own right I would not be happy. Protest wouldn't be enough. We would need to write books! Or release chart singles.

    Here's an example:

    1) "I hate you, my EU"
    2) "Bailout, bailout, toil and trouble"
    3) "Herman, Herman, I didn't know you before, and now that I do, I hate you".
    4) "Trade, not union"
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    I like the idea of a free trade area, but I am completely against the EU as a law making body. I'm also against the UK joining the Euro.

    (Original post by HarryA)
    There have been several cases where the ECJ and European Court of Human Rights have provided what are seen as "morally correct” decisions. Not only this, but there have been several equality laws enforced through membership of the EU.

    Were it not for the EU, Parliament would not have enforced laws to allow people to have their rights enforced.

    So while there are downsides to being in the EU, the upsides outweigh them.
    The ECHR has absolutely nothing to do with the EU, it was set up by the European council which was founded by us and 7 other countries after WW2.c
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    we trade freely with countries in the EU, if we withdrew it would be a disaster in terms of the economy based on this trade.

    Any politician who says that we should withdraw is merely appealing to the strong euroscepticism in the UK, they know how much of a stupid move it would be to leave the EU.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    I like the idea of a free trade area, but I am completely against the EU as a law making body. I'm also against the UK joining the Euro.

    The ECHR has absolutely nothing to do with the EU, it was set up by the European council which was founded by us and 7 other countries after WW2.c
    We are bound by our membership of the EU to accept the ECHR's rulings, as all EU member states are. Anything else would mean we would have to leave.

    And the EU is a law making body, in a big way.
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    (Original post by Scholefield :))
    we trade freely with countries in the EU, if we withdrew it would be a disaster in terms of the economy based on this trade.

    Any politician who says that we should withdraw is merely appealing to the strong euroscepticism in the UK, they know how much of a stupid move it would be to leave the EU.
    Leaving the EU would not be a disaster in terms of anything, least of all trade.
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    I have never liked the bloated institution that passes for the EU.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    I like the idea of a free trade area, but I am completely against the EU as a law making body. I'm also against the UK joining the Euro.



    The ECHR has absolutely nothing to do with the EU, it was set up by the European council which was founded by us and 7 other countries after WW2.c
    Are you f*cking stupid? You talk as if you are right when you are utterly wrong. The European Council (which is an institution of the EU) was not set up by the UK at all - the UK joined the EU in 1973. The European Council did not set up the European Court of Human Rights, the Council of Europe did. The UK and 9 other countries founded the Council after WWII

    All members of the EU are members of the Council. The European Court of Human Rights enforces the European Convention on Human Rights (which is enforced by the Human Rights Act 1998 here).

    So while the ECJ and ECofHR are separate, they both have the aim of improving unity and providing "justice".
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    (Original post by HarryA)
    Are you f*cking stupid? You talk as if you are right when you are utterly wrong. The European Council (which is an institution of the EU) was not set up by the UK at all - the UK joined the EU in 1973. The European Council did not set up the European Court of Human Rights, the Council of Europe did. The UK and 9 other countries founded the Council after WWII

    All members of the EU are members of the Council. The European Court of Human Rights enforces the European Convention on Human Rights (which is enforced by the Human Rights Act 1998 here).

    So while the ECJ and ECofHR are separate, they both have the aim of improving unity and providing "justice".
    I said the european council, instead of the council of europe no need to act like a ****.
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    (Original post by HJV)
    Same principle as people from Yorkshire having a say to what happens in Cornwall. Just a bigger scale.
    Yes, If Cornwall and Yorkshire had seperate monetary and fiscal policy, different laws and different currencies :facepalm2:
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    (Original post by Scholefield :))
    we trade freely with countries in the EU, if we withdrew it would be a disaster in terms of the economy based on this trade.

    Any politician who says that we should withdraw is merely appealing to the strong euroscepticism in the UK, they know how much of a stupid move it would be to leave the EU.
    You could do a Switzerland and draw up various free trade agreements - they have done so for decades and not felt forced to join!

    So if you eliminate that element of your scaremongering (the loss of economic activity), then what disadvantage is there to leaving? NONE.
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    (Original post by Barksy)
    Any Union that takes away our own Government's power and freedom to exercise policies in the national interest is a bad thing (Prisoners getting the vote etc).
    Oh for ****'s sake, read a book now and again. Giving prisoners the vote has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. It has to do with the British government signing a treaty committing us to a (very British) set of rights and civil liberties, which form the basic level of rights we expect to be implemented in civilised nations.

    Why should a bunch of French and Germans decide what policies we can make in our own country?
    For the same reason that someone in Devon or County Antrim can happily decide on political policy for my county: because we are part of one united polity.
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    (Original post by loafer)
    I wonder how many people on the street could name the EU President...
    I'm more worried about the people who think there is such a thing as a President of the EU. There isn't. There are Presidents of the individual bodies (a President of the Parliament, a President of the European Council, a President of the European Commission etc). We also forget that President is a relatively lowly title (which is, incidentally, why it was chosen for the American head of state) - in a European context it means little more than Chairman or Presiding Officer.

    (Original post by Aj12)
    Tbh the Eu needs to define what it is and what it wants to become. Is it trying to turn Europe into a state or is it just a trade bloc. The single currency would never work unless the EU acted as one single state.
    I won't defend the single currency, but as to what the EU is - it is primarily an economic entity, but also a political one. That doesn't mean it has to or intends to become a state: it aspires to be a new sort of multi-state polity.

    Personally I do not like the Eu because of the way poltcians in brussels make choices and laws for other countries. Its a bit like trying to run a multinational company centrally. It will never work.
    But there are many successful multinational companies out there, which are far more centralised than the EU.

    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    You could do a Switzerland and draw up various free trade agreements - they have done so for decades and not felt forced to join!

    So if you eliminate that element of your scaremongering (the loss of economic activity), then what disadvantage is there to leaving? NONE.
    Free trade agreements with the EU are ridiculous. It basically means we have to adhere to EU regulations in order to export to their markets, yet get no say over how these regulations are made.
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    (Original post by Tamora)
    We are bound by our membership of the EU to accept the ECHR's rulings, as all EU member states are. Anything else would mean we would have to leave.
    We are not bound to do that at all and, whilst it may create a constitutional crisis within the Union, there is no grounds in law at all for insisting on a state being involved in the ECHR.

    We are, however, bound to the ECHR anyway, by virtue of having signed the treaty.
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    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    A system that is good shouldn't need a bailout facility. That the Euro does shows it isn't good.
    How about the banking system?
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    (Original post by Tamora)
    Leaving the EU would not be a disaster in terms of anything, least of all trade.

    What a well backed up argument, well done.
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    A united EU is the answer!
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    TSR had a big mock referendum on the EU not long ago. If you search for the thread and read it you will learn plenty!
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    (Original post by karateworm)
    Hi all

    For most of my (politically aware) life I've been a staunch supporter of the EU, but as of late I've started to question how necessary it really is, and whether a "simple" trade agreement would be the answer economically.

    I'd like to see the coherent arguments from both perspectives, so I can take a step closer to working out my view on it. Thanks to all those who post
    If you're so sure, join UKIP. you'll make my tutor soooo happy!
    The % of money the UK contributes to the EU is quite low (although often vastly exaggerated). depends on your political viewpoints. great arguments for remaining in the EU, great arguments for leaving it too.
    but the EU does have potential. may have failed in many ways due to mismanagement in some cases, but I see a lot of potential in it.
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    Doesn't matter. In international relations we've studied how once you're part of a supranational organisation it's pretty much impossible to get out. So better make the most of what we've got.

    In any case, without the E.U. we'd just be a nothing country in a nothing political sphere. The European powers first tried to maintain superiority through colonisation. When that cow was milked (after a bit of buggering around having wars) we united. As it stands, the E.U. is the second largest economy just by virtue of being bigger than any of its countries. America worked out that you could do this way back in the 19th century, and it seemed to work for them, I guess.
 
 
 
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