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Difficulty of installing new clutch (by yourself) Watch

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    I know of plenty of cracked alloy sumps from being jacked poorly /weight on the sump. so not worth the risk.

    You only need a chunky bit of wood laid across the strut tops to strap engine onto to take the strain. You can buy the special engine support bars just for the job but its cheaper to make your own.
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    (Original post by gbduo)
    Its bad engineering practice.

    But its your car/engine/whatever.

    S'bout right.

    Its certainly that you often see engines sat on a crate on there sump in scrapyards etc, and that you can proberbly take the wieght of the engine on the sump with care. Infact i have been know to lift the front of my whole car on the sump (kitcar) but certainly with case ali sumps (as aposed to pressed steel) i wouldnt be hesitent to recomend it to anyone.

    If you have a garage with a suitable roof or lintle, it may be possable to lift of this, but again, miles from best practice and at your own risk!


    Daniel
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    Of course with a sump you really only have the 3 or 4mm thickness of the sump casing round the perimeter supporting the weight of the engine - even with a block of wood underneath jacking on that is only going to give maybe 20mm^2 supporting the whole weight of the engine. At least when it's sat on the ground it's 3 or 4mm times the whole perimeter of the sump. I certainly wouldn't jack an engine on an ally sump.
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    yes I agree thats tough
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    (Original post by gbduo)
    Its bad engineering practice.

    I would always say use the engine hoist points which are designed to take the weight of the engine and some of the car, over the sump. Its not worth risking it, they are cast (Are you sure all sumps are cast????) and although resistant to shock loading, stress loading not so much, (I just thought i'd add that, assuming you're still speaking about cast aluminium, this is complete rubbish. In fact it is so wrong that it is pretty much the opposite of what is right.) they could bend (BEND?????? cast aluminium?) or crack and then you are up ****s creek without a paddle.


    When the engine is out of he car, you should lay the engine over onto its block, higher surface area spreads the stress and loading points.

    Either way, its irrelevant, if you look at my link I put in another post further up, it is a step by step guide on how to do it and supporting the engine is not necessary I don't think.

    You should never rely on what something should be able to do, if there is an alternative, which there is.

    But its your car/engine/whatever.



    Graham


    If you think you don't need to support the weight of the engine to change a clutch you're in no position to spout about bad engineering practice / where to jack an engine.

    I've seen what a sump has to go through before it can be approved for production. It'll support the weight of an engine.

    Have you ever actually laid an engine on it's side, exactly how do the small contact points which actually touch the floor have a greater surface area than the base of the sump?

    What if it's built up? You going to lean it on the power steering pump pulley or the inlet manifold?

    You're amusing me now, i'll look forward to your response.....
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    (Original post by Rufusw5)
    Have you ever actually laid an engine on it's side, exactly how do the small contact points which actually touch the floor have a greater surface area than the base of the sump?
    Very nearly all the surface area of the sump is irrelevant in terms of spreading a load, as it's only supported at the edges. Putting a load in the middle will generate a large bending moment at the edges.
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    (Original post by Rufusw5)
    If you think you don't need to support the weight of the engine to change a clutch you're in no position to spout about bad engineering practice / where to jack an engine.

    I've seen what a sump has to go through before it can be approved for production. It'll support the weight of an engine.

    Have you ever actually laid an engine on it's side, exactly how do the small contact points which actually touch the floor have a greater surface area than the base of the sump?

    What if it's built up? You going to lean it on the power steering pump pulley or the inlet manifold?

    You're amusing me now, i'll look forward to your response.....
    Look, read the how to thread which I posted, it says in there you do not need to support the sump for the Civic.

    Because the small contact points (which are not that small) spread the load over a greater area and are structural to the whole engine, i.e. the block is a machined solid piece of metal, the sump is bolted. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a solid chunk of metal with tight tolerances inside of it is going to be stronger than a thin piece of metal with a hollow cavity in the middle of it!

    Obviously further to my good engineering practice, you would find a suitable way of supporting the engine, the best of which, if you are removing the engine is on a dedicated crankcase stand. However if it must be put on the ground, you lay it over on its side, obviously on the block, like I said. If you are supporting the engine whilst in the car, you would use lifting eyes on the cylinder head or the engine mount brackets. This is all elementary stuff!

    Supporting the engines weight on the sump although perhaps it could cope with the stress, is an unsubstantiated risk, when there are better options available.

    There have been 4 other members of this forum who have agreed with me, you are in the minority here.

    Likewise, I also said you can do what you want with your car and engine, but don't spout bad engineering practice.
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    Like this



    The only exception is if you have an older engine with a cast sump, like this Beetle engine..



    But I think with a few exceptions, most people have modern cars now, and the Honda definitely has a alloy sump and although I don't doubt they are strong to withstand shock loading, bending and continual stress can cause fracture and bending in alloys. They are not as strong as their cast counter parts in dealing with loading, but they are much stronger at dealing with shock and much lighter, so pros and cons. Cast steel can be brittle, alloy steel is not. In general.
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    (Original post by gbduo)
    Like this



    The only exception is if you have an older engine with a cast sump, like this Beetle engine..


    I have some questions:


    That car in the picture with the trolley underneath it (The beetle), you do know that big cast lump is the exhaust manifold don't you?

    How many cars have you come across with cast steel sumps? I've never seen one!

    Do you know that the beetle sump is cast aluminium?

    Would you recomend you're average DIY mechanic go out and buy that contraption in the first pic before changing a clutch?

    Do you think most garages own such a thing?

    What about the other option.. an engine crane... should he buy one of those instead?

    hmmm.. £200 for a crane or £15 for a trolley jack and an old plank.... that thing in the pic will probably be more expensive..... look it up

    Have you ever actually fitted a clutch?

    What happens when you lay an engine over? (If you've done it you'll know what i'm getting at)

    Does the fact that the sump is thinner than the block mean it is incapable of supporting the block?

    I don't know where to start with this:


    "But I think with a few exceptions, most people have modern cars now, and the Honda definitely has a alloy sump and although I don't doubt they are strong to withstand shock loading, bending and continual stress can cause fracture and bending in alloys. They are not as strong as their cast counter parts in dealing with loading, but they are much stronger at dealing with shock and much lighter, so pros and cons. Cast steel can be brittle, alloy steel is not. In general."

    Why are you talking about cast steel?

    Do you really think aluminium sumps are better at withstanding continual stress than shock loading?

    You do know what an engine does don't you? And that gearbox / block cases are ofteb made from aluminium?

    You do know that aluminium alloy sumps are cast don't you?

    Alloy steel? Do you know what steel is?

    For the most part of that i don't know what you're talking about, since you don't seem to know the difference between cast aluminium, cast steel, pressed steel or what alloy means.






    Look, It's pretty obvious that you don't have any real mechanical experience, or engineering experience for that matter, for a start you think an engine block is machined from solid. This means you either don't know the difference between a casting and a machined part, or you have never actually looked at an engine block from anything less than 10 feet away.

    Either way you're in no position to argue the pro's and con's (Very badly, what you said doesn't really make any sense) of the different types of materials used to make a sump pan.



    You should put the spade down really... If you feel compelled to continue then please do.....
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    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    Very nearly all the surface area of the sump is irrelevant in terms of spreading a load, as it's only supported at the edges. Putting a load in the middle will generate a large bending moment at the edges.
    It doesn't really matter how you cut it, the sump will support the weight of the engine, whether it's supposed to or not it's still part of the design requirements.
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    (Original post by Rufusw5)
    I have some questions:


    That car in the picture with the trolley underneath it (The beetle), you do know that big cast lump is the exhaust manifold don't you?

    How many cars have you come across with cast steel sumps? I've never seen one!

    Do you know that the beetle sump is cast aluminium?

    Would you recomend you're average DIY mechanic go out and buy that contraption in the first pic before changing a clutch?

    Do you think most garages own such a thing?

    What about the other option.. an engine crane... should he buy one of those instead?

    hmmm.. £200 for a crane or £15 for a trolley jack and an old plank.... that thing in the pic will probably be more expensive..... look it up

    Have you ever actually fitted a clutch?

    What happens when you lay an engine over? (If you've done it you'll know what i'm getting at)

    Does the fact that the sump is thinner than the block mean it is incapable of supporting the block?

    I don't know where to start with this:


    "But I think with a few exceptions, most people have modern cars now, and the Honda definitely has a alloy sump and although I don't doubt they are strong to withstand shock loading, bending and continual stress can cause fracture and bending in alloys. They are not as strong as their cast counter parts in dealing with loading, but they are much stronger at dealing with shock and much lighter, so pros and cons. Cast steel can be brittle, alloy steel is not. In general."

    Why are you talking about cast steel?

    Do you really think aluminium sumps are better at withstanding continual stress than shock loading?

    You do know what an engine does don't you? And that gearbox / block cases are ofteb made from aluminium?

    You do know that aluminium alloy sumps are cast don't you?

    Alloy steel? Do you know what steel is?

    For the most part of that i don't know what you're talking about, since you don't seem to know the difference between cast aluminium, cast steel, pressed steel or what alloy means.






    Look, It's pretty obvious that you don't have any real mechanical experience, or engineering experience for that matter, for a start you think an engine block is machined from solid. This means you either don't know the difference between a casting and a machined part, or you have never actually looked at an engine block from anything less than 10 feet away.

    Either way you're in no position to argue the pro's and con's (Very badly, what you said doesn't really make any sense) of the different types of materials used to make a sump pan.



    You should put the spade down really... If you feel compelled to continue then please do.....
    I am a fully qualified Marine Mechanical Engineer, you know with a degree and stuff.

    I know what I am talking about.

    Of course there are a different types of alloy steel, I know steel is an alloy, but you have various differing types of alloy steel, high tensile steel, spring steel, hardened steel, etc etc.

    I have said many times, you can do whatever the **** you want with your sump, personally I wouldn't recommend it for the reasons outlined.

    But yes, I would use the proper tools for the job, including spending £80 on a engine hoist from machinemart if I were to replace a clutch.

    I built my first car when I was 14, I think that should answer your questions. I replace clutches on large marine diesels engines. Knowing where you can support weight is very important and thus using approved lifting points is always the best course of action!

    But as I have said many times, you are free to do what you want. Just I can't help but think that the engine hoists I have shown is the best practice. But you are welcome to do as you wish.

    Does that make it clearer? I'm pretty bored of saying the same thing over and over again, but finally, its your car, you can do what you want but using approved lifting points is the best course of action.

    OK?

    Brilliant.

    Graham
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    (Original post by gbduo)
    I am a fully qualified Marine Mechanical Engineer, you know with a degree and stuff.

    I know what I am talking about.

    Of course there are a different types of alloy steel, I know steel is an alloy, but you have various differing types of alloy steel, high tensile steel, spring steel, hardened steel, etc etc.

    I have said many times, you can do whatever the **** you want with your sump, personally I wouldn't recommend it for the reasons outlined.

    But yes, I would use the proper tools for the job, including spending £80 on a engine hoist from machinemart if I were to replace a clutch.

    I built my first car when I was 14, I think that should answer your questions. I replace clutches on large marine diesels engines. Knowing where you can support weight is very important and thus using approved lifting points is always the best course of action!

    But as I have said many times, you are free to do what you want. Just I can't help but think that the engine hoists I have shown is the best practice. But you are welcome to do as you wish.

    Does that make it clearer? I'm pretty bored of saying the same thing over and over again, but finally, its your car, you can do what you want but using approved lifting points is the best course of action.

    OK?

    Brilliant.

    Graham
    You keep repeating yourself, but you don't answer really any of my questions, why is that? You come across as a pen and paper mechanic to me.

    My point is, the sump will take the weight quite comfortably, it's still on 2 mounts, and would have a weight spreader (Piece of wood) so why would he spend £80 (Seriously? I thought you needed to spend at least £200 for something half decent.. but then you're the expert...) on a hoist for one job?

    He's probably already got a jack!

    This degree of yours has taught you much about the names of metal but little about the properties of them.....

    So... are you going to answer the questions i asked or just repeat yourself again?
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    (Original post by Rufusw5)
    You keep repeating yourself, but you don't answer really any of my questions, why is that? You come across as a pen and paper mechanic to me.

    My point is, the sump will take the weight quite comfortably, it's still on 2 mounts, and would have a weight spreader (Piece of wood) so why would he spend £80 (Seriously? I thought you needed to spend at least £200 for something half decent.. but then you're the expert...) on a hoist for one job?

    He's probably already got a jack!

    This degree of yours has taught you much about the names of metal but little about the properties of them.....

    So... are you going to answer the questions i asked or just repeat yourself again?
    You are making an awful lot of assumptions.

    I am a ships engineer, go and find out what they do, they are not pencil pushers (well they are, but they are practical as well, to a much greater degree marine engineers are practical over design work/management)!

    But I do need to know the properties of metal, I mean it is a basic requirement for an engineer is to know the properties of a metal and then apply thermo/mechanics to ensure the metal can take the load/forces you apply to it. I am not going to go into huge detail on here because quite frankly, I don't need to, I am not teaching anyone, no one cares and it adds nothing.

    You could rig a hoist for £80 easily.

    I'm not going to answer your questions because they are fruitless, I have told you what I think, you won't agree with me, so what is the point?! Furthermore, this is completely irrelevant because if you read the how to I posted on the first page you don't even need to lift or support the engine. You remove the gearbox!

    There is no need to loosen the engine mounts on a Honda Civic. Read the how to on the first page.

    The main point of any safe lift is to use approved lifting points. The correct lifting points on an engine to support its weight and the cars weight is through the lifting eyes on the top of the engine using chains or strops. You could mount the chain block or lift to a secure safe location (ground through a engine lift or beam/A Frame over the suspension struts or from some joists/RSJ above).

    You could use the sump, but it is not recommended.

    That is my point, I don't need to go into metal properties and great detail to make that point, it is common sense. Like most engineering.

    Use a car jack with wood if you want, but personally and everyone so far on this thread who has commented other than you, wouldn't recommend it.

    I hope that makes things crystal clear.

    Graham
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    Oh and £80 for engine supports

    http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...-engine-stands
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    [QUOTE=gbduo;29607313]You are making an awful lot of assumptions.


    My assumptions are based on your comments about the properties of various metals. You seem to know enough to sound clever to people who don't know what you're talking about.

    half the time I can't make out what metal you're talking about, when I can you're way off the mark.

    Further to this, you refuse to answer my questions!

    Now you're telling me you don't need to support the engine at all, how is jacking the sump worse than leaving it swinging off the top mount?

    You keep telling me you know what you're talking about, really not the impression i get...

    On top of all this you're completely missing the point!! The guys after saving some money by doing the job himself, if he can get away without spending the £80 then surely that's better??????

    Trust, you can jack an engine by the sump, bad practice or not i've done it literally hundreds of times and never broken one yet. I've jacked steel, stainless, cast aluminium and composite sumps, all fine with a nice sized plank to support them.

    I like the way you've assumed your job makes you better qualified to answer this one... you're way off the mark with that one too.

    I'm going to leave you to this one now, I have better things to do than to argue with an idiot.
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    And you are missing my point.

    Read the how to, he doesn't need to support the engine. I have a Honda, I kinda know a little bit about them!

    Learn to read and digest, it helps.

    The further point was to always use approved lifting points and equipment as it is a matter of safety, the last thing I want to do is give out advice on a forum for the person to go away, damage their car, or worst of all the car to fall on them and they get seriously injured. The option is there to take shortcuts, but the correct procedure should also be given, which I have done.

    You are free to support the engine via the sump, I NEVER said you were not, however, I am merely stating that there are better practices available and if possible to use these as they significantly lower the risk of damage to yourself or the equipment you are working on.

    As I say, common sense.

    You don't need to know the various properties of metals to follow good practices, it is just common sense to use a a lifting eye which as the name suggests is used for lifting rather than something which is not. I know lifting by the sump is sometimes your only option and I have done it before, however I am loathed to offer this as advice in case of injury or damage to someone else's equipment. It is bad practice and it should be a last resort not a first.

    Being into engineering you have to think outside of the box sometimes and by doing so, you are open to a whole new world of possibilities. I am not saying you have to stick rigidly to good practices, but it is always best to stick to SAFE practices, especially when you are supporting heavy loads.

    All you need is one sump to have a small amount of metal fatigue or casting fault and you are scuppered. If you use the engine lifting eyes you have redundancy in your lifting and they are designed to do so.

    That is MY point.

    Think.
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    (Original post by Rufusw5)

    This degree of yours has taught you much about the names of metal but little about the properties of them.....
    Talking about the properties of materials in isolation in this context is pointless, it's a structural issue.

    At the end of the day it's the difference between bodging and doing a job properly. Yeah, sometimes you can bodge something and get away with it, but more often than not you actually generate a lot more work for yourself.
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    (Original post by Rufusw5)
    Havent you ever seen an engine sat on the floor.. on it's... sump? Is this not supporting the weight of the engine?

    What do you think the block of wood was for?

    I've jacked many engines in this way and not so much as marked them..

    Might also interest you to know that sumps are designed to withstand impact without leakage.. They actually go through extensive testing in all conditions where things are fired at them to make sure they perform to spec, they're also subjected to massive overstress tests to check they can withstand the weight of the engine, bacause lord knows someone will no doubt sit one on it's sump at some point.

    It'll take alot more than some careful jacking to damage a sump.

    I'm with graham on this.
    When I leave engines on the deck I put a piece of wood under the bellhousing and another piece under the front timing case.

    You jack an engine up under the sump you're likely to crush the bottom of the sump pan against the oil strainer = no oil pressure on start up.

    Being a have-a-go-hero is one thing, but advising others to do something stupid is quite another matter all together...
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    (Original post by JC.)
    I'm with graham on this.
    When I leave engines on the deck I put a piece of wood under the bellhousing and another piece under the front timing case.

    You jack an engine up under the sump you're likely to crush the bottom of the sump pan against the oil strainer = no oil pressure on start up.

    Being a have-a-go-hero is one thing, but advising others to do something stupid is quite another matter all together...


    Cheers!

    G
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    I know, I was stunned! Good feeling though!
 
 
 
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