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The negative aspects of so called Values eg intelligence Watch

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    Conc: Things can be bad on occasion.
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    (Original post by sinbad23)
    Oh you superior being you

    Go ahead try to prove me wrong. I look forward to it.
    I can't. I give in. You're obviously right. It would be better if we had never come down form the trees.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    I can't. I give in. You're obviously right. It would be better if we had never come down form the trees.
    Lol no need to get upset. Its not neccessarily a bad or good thing to be intelligent, but thats the point everyone thinks its a 100% good thing.
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    (Original post by sinbad23)
    Lol no need to get upset. Its not neccessarily a bad or good thing to be intelligent, but thats the point everyone thinks its a 100% good thing.
    No, its a good thing because intelligence is a tool that we can call on when trying to make decisions. It's not a way of life. It just allows us to make better decisions.

    Let us compare this to having a spanner instead of a stick. I could change my wheel with a spanner, or I could kill someone with either the stick or the spanner. The presence of the spanner merely gives me the choice. It doesn't mean I have to kill someone with it.

    I don't think intelligence is ever a bad thing.
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    (Original post by sinbad23)
    Lol no need to get upset. Its not neccessarily a bad or good thing to be intelligent, but thats the point everyone thinks its a 100% good thing.
    Is it bad for the person who is intelligent, you would first have to define what is desirable for that person. I know quite a few clever people who do get "lost in their heads" but would rather spend time on their own than with other people. The murder stealing argument only works if other poeple are smarter than everyone else, what if everyone was very clever? Say there is someone who wants to be smarter to be better at getting away with things, how is it bad for that person? (Ramble, should really read my own posts).
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    No, its a good thing because intelligence is a tool that we can call on when trying to make decisions. It's not a way of life. It just allows us to make better decisions.

    Let us compare this to having a spanner instead of a stick. I could change my wheel with a spanner, or I could kill someone with either the stick or the spanner. The presence of the spanner merely gives me the choice. It doesn't mean I have to kill someone with it.

    I don't think intelligence is ever a bad thing.
    I just mentioned my opinions previously of why intelligence can be a bad thing.

    But then again there is a DIFFERENCE between awareness/consciousness and intelligence (maths/english). Many people say awareness/consciousness is whats important not ability to memorise facts or think logically.

    However even awareness/consciousness can have bad associations with it eg never being able to experience the importance of your actions or feel high and low peaks of emotions.
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    (Original post by JayReg)
    Is it bad for the person who is intelligent, you would first have to define what is desirable for that person. I know quite a few clever people who do get "lost in their heads" but would rather spend time on their own than with other people. The murder stealing argument only works if other poeple are smarter than everyone else, what if everyone was very clever? Say there is someone who wants to be smarter to be better at getting away with things, how is it bad for that person? (Ramble, should really read my own posts).
    Yes good argument, you can argue EVERYTHING, even my original OP.
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    (Original post by sinbad23)
    I just mentioned my opinions previously of why intelligence can be a bad thing.

    But then again there is a DIFFERENCE between awareness/consciousness and intelligence (maths/english). Many people say awareness/consciousness is whats important not ability to memorise facts or think logically.

    However even awareness/consciousness can have bad associations with it eg never being able to experience the importance of your actions or feel high and low peaks of emotions.
    You're just talking gibberish now. In fact I've looked back at your original post, and that was gibberish too.

    You need to google "intelligence" and start from there.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    You're just talking gibberish now. In fact I've looked back at your original post, and that was gibberish too.

    You need to google "intelligence" and start from there.
    buddhist thought is hard to understand.

    There is booksmart Intelligence.

    and then there is "Intelligence" in terms of buddhism which means beind aware of your own behaviour, ego, other peoples ego, the present moment, your emotions, your thoughts. Which allows you to live life in a more peaceful manner.
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    (Original post by sinbad23)
    Yes good argument, you can argue EVERYTHING, even my original OP.
    So your basically just arguing that everything is subjective?
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    (Original post by JayReg)
    So your basically just arguing that everything is subjective?
    I am arguing everything. Every "thought" a "thought" is a thing".

    Even the denial of a belief is a "thought" so I am saying that no thing/thought can be rejected as false or accepted as true.
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    (Original post by sinbad23)
    A lot of people desire to be for example

    Intelligent

    Successful with men/women

    a "good" person

    funny

    But each of these so called values have many negative aspects to them too.
    To say there are negative aspects at all however, would be a mistake. Here's why.
    Intelligence - intelligence itself isn't the reason people do bad things. Intelligence just gives the person a greater capacity to exert his/her will i.e. there's a greater range of choices available at any one time. A greater capacity to do both good and evil. But that's not down to intelligence!

    Successful with men/women - most people have been hurt and have hurt others. I'm no exception. But I have a rule - there are no rules except be moral. I'll never hurt (emotionally or otherwise) someone else in order to get a girl, even if it means I won't. But to be honest, I'm doing pretty well even with restrictions like these. The rest of what you said have nothing to do with being successful with women.. Jealousy/Fights/Spending money all stem from insecurity - a confidence issue.

    Good person - a soldier volunteering to give out aid to impoverished people whilst not being very nice is still a good person. You've gotten "good" and "nice" mixed up. Lying in a job application isn't necessary either. :d

    Being funny - if you're being offensive with your jokes, then you're not very funny are you? By definition, someone who is funny doesn't tell jokes that cause offence. The rest of what you say stem from insecurity, once again.
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    (Original post by ShnnyShiz)
    To say there are negative aspects at all however, would be a mistake. Here's why.
    Intelligence - intelligence itself isn't the reason people do bad things. Intelligence just gives the person a greater capacity to exert his/her will i.e. there's a greater range of choices available at any one time. A greater capacity to do both good and evil. But that's not down to intelligence!

    Successful with men/women - most people have been hurt and have hurt others. I'm no exception. But I have a rule - there are no rules except be moral. I'll never hurt (emotionally or otherwise) someone else in order to get a girl, even if it means I won't. But to be honest, I'm doing pretty well even with restrictions like these. The rest of what you said have nothing to do with being successful with women.. Jealousy/Fights/Spending money all stem from insecurity - a confidence issue.

    Good person - a soldier volunteering to give out aid to impoverished people whilst not being very nice is still a good person. You've gotten "good" and "nice" mixed up. Lying in a job application isn't necessary either. :d

    Being funny - if you're being offensive with your jokes, then you're not very funny are you? By definition, someone who is funny doesn't tell jokes that cause offence. The rest of what you say stem from insecurity, once again.
    Im going to argue with this just to prove my theory right.

    I never said intelligence was the reason people do bad things. I said being intelligent may not ALWAYS be a good thing because it allows the person to do certain thing which may be considered bad. Bad and good are opinions..so here we go again.

    Im saying that there are certain men who see the ability to have sex with lots and lots of women as the ultimate goal in life, however they never regard other things such as being moral, getting aids. Etc. It is only good according to their opinion.

    Good person what if that soldier was giving aid to impoverished people who then grew up to destroy the world (LOL just an example) What if he gave aid to people who didnt want/need it and they felt patronised by his aid. Good and bad are opinions. What if the fact that people think hes "good" makes other people think their "bad" which causes a loss of self esteem. Is that good or bad.

    In regards to being funny. like Im just saying that someones goal in life may be to be funny. But in making a lot of people laugh they may also offend a lot of people. Is this such a good trait.
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    Im going to argue with this just to prove my theory right.

    I never said intelligence was the reason people do bad things. I said being intelligent may not ALWAYS be a good thing because it allows the person to do certain thing which may be considered bad. Bad and good are opinions..so here we go again.

    Im saying that there are certain men who see the ability to have sex with lots and lots of women as the ultimate goal in life, however they never regard other things such as being moral, getting aids. Etc. It is only good according to their opinion.

    Good person what if that soldier was giving aid to impoverished people who then grew up to destroy the world (LOL just an example) What if he gave aid to people who didnt want/need it and they felt patronised by his aid. Good and bad are opinions. What if the fact that people think hes "good" makes other people think their "bad" which causes a loss of self esteem. Is that good or bad.

    In regards to being funny. like Im just saying that someones goal in life may be to be funny. But in making a lot of people laugh they may also offend a lot of people. Is this such a good trait

    Oh and if you need to support yourself and your family but because unemployment is so high you need a job so desperately that lying in your job application will help you get a job. But then you can argue wether its neccessary to eat or survive...
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    (Original post by sinbad23)
    Im going to argue with this just to prove my theory right.
    You're not thinking this through.. there's an underlying pattern to everything you're saying. The traits themselves are inherently positive. What makes them negative is the person who has those traits or the situation - hence why you keep saying "certain men" and "certain things".
    Someone who uses their intelligence to do a bad thing is responsible for doing the bad thing. Intelligence is just a TOOL. It cannot be responsible for good or bad things. What makes an action good or bad? The person who WILLS it. Think about it - how can intelligence "do" anything? It doesn't even make sense! Only a person can do things.

    The soldier was just an example I used. In that case, he would've done a good thing at first and then a very bad thing. But once again, how can good or bad do anything? It doesn't even make sense to ask. That's like saying, "Good decided to cross the road" or "Bad decided to kill a sheep". Once again, only a person can do things.

    Basically, you're wrong. It's the person that is ultimately responsible for the perceived negative aspects of virtues (not "Values" as you put in your title). I have an A-level in this stuff..
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    (Original post by ShnnyShiz)
    You're not thinking this through.. there's an underlying pattern to everything you're saying. The traits themselves are inherently positive. What makes them negative is the person who has those traits or the situation - hence why you keep saying "certain men" and "certain things".
    Someone who uses their intelligence to do a bad thing is responsible for doing the bad thing. Intelligence is just a TOOL. It cannot be responsible for good or bad things. What makes an action good or bad? The person who WILLS it. Think about it - how can intelligence "do" anything? It doesn't even make sense! Only a person can do things.

    The soldier was just an example I used. In that case, he would've done a good thing at first and then a very bad thing. But once again, how can good or bad do anything? It doesn't even make sense to ask. That's like saying, "Good decided to cross the road" or "Bad decided to kill a sheep". Once again, only a person can do things.

    Basically, you're wrong. It's the person that is ultimately responsible for the perceived negative aspects of virtues (not "Values" as you put in your title). I have an A-level in this stuff..
    Intelligent arguments

    But I still stand by good and bad depend on opinions.

    For example if death was a good thing eg some people believe that life after death is like paradise, anyone who helped to kill someone is a good person.

    If suffering was a good thing which many people believe it is because it teaches you things you dont learn in normal circumstances then anyone who helped someone suffer did something "good"

    If peace was a bad thing because it meant that someone could never experience pleasure or importance in their actions then someone teaching buddhism would be a "bad person".

    Oh and what A level are you doing, not that having an A level in something means your correct in whatever opinion you hold.
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    I haven't read the whole thread but I think a lot of people missed the OP's point which is that it is *possible* that our strongest points are also our weakest points and vice versa. For instance, you are pushy, arrogant, rude and everyone (or a lot of people) hate you for it but you get your way in life: you're always to the front of the cue at bus stops and you're always the one to get the job because you fought for it - you just don't happen to be very popular. Someone who's more laid back and happy on the other hand might make more people like them but they don't necessarily make it in the rough outside dog-eat-dog world. On a personality level, as well as a success level, the former person can be considered a stronger more down-to-earth person while the latter can be considered a drip and a push over so pros and cons translate into both realms of life (and these "realms" of course are not exclusive from another/there is no fine line).

    If you take any example to the extreme then, yeah, of course it is going to be ridiculous; there is no strict equilibrium between our good points and our bad points but it is something that can be considered when assessing a person.

    In a way, the OP has an optimistic, not a pessimistic onlook of life because s/he is saying "have faults? No worries, they can translate into good things as well as bad things."

    I personally believe that we have to find a way of maximising the strengths and minimising the weaknesses of our personality traits to get the most out of life; we have to play to our best ability with the pack of cards that we are actually given.
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    (Original post by Me)
    ...
    ...*Yawn*. A cowardly neg rep and no reply.
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    (Original post by sinbad23)
    Intelligent arguments

    But I still stand by good and bad depend on opinions.

    For example if death was a good thing eg some people believe that life after death is like paradise, anyone who helped to kill someone is a good person.

    If suffering was a good thing which many people believe it is because it teaches you things you dont learn in normal circumstances then anyone who helped someone suffer did something "good"

    If peace was a bad thing because it meant that someone could never experience pleasure or importance in their actions then someone teaching buddhism would be a "bad person".

    Oh and what A level are you doing, not that having an A level in something means your correct in whatever opinion you hold.

    If you stand by that then you're a non-cognitivist. Non-cognitivists believe good and bad are subjective to each individual and there are no moral truths. But there's a lot of problems with that view, it means that murder and rape could be good things. After all, it all depends on opinion..
    I have an A-level in Philosophy.. and it's not opinion when it's backed up by evidence and sound logic is it? What you're saying doesn't even make sense.. sorry mate..
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    (Original post by ShnnyShiz)
    If you stand by that then you're a non-cognitivist. Non-cognitivists believe good and bad are subjective to each individual and there are no moral truths. But there's a lot of problems with that view, it means that murder and rape could be good things. After all, it all depends on opinion..
    I have an A-level in Philosophy.. and it's not opinion when it's backed up by evidence and sound logic is it? What you're saying doesn't even make sense.. sorry mate..
    Murdering someone whos going to destroy 10,000 lives and start world war 3? How is that a bad thing?

    Murdering someone to save 5 or even your own life, or your close friends.

    Rape- i dont suggest its a good thing, but its a part of nature, maybe it means that a species will have a more of a chance of surviving or something.

    Evidence and sound logic? not really, first of all, both of those are subjective also.
    There are a lot of things in this world that are not logical but still exist. Quantum mechanics is not logical.

    It doesnt make sense, if you dont understand it. Doesnt mean it doesnt make sense to everyone.

    Oh and I dont like your non cognitivist "label" Its like calling me an "atheist" since when do people describe themselves by something their not.
 
 
 
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