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Your misbeliefs about Western civilisation?... Watch

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      (Original post by roots)
      Why couldn't you view that as a weakness What you do tolerate gives you more problems, you tolerate spreading filth and destructive behaviours/attitudes through the media and that gives you a great number of problems.
      You can't view that as a weakness of a society because the alternative is far worse. Again and again, you fall into the fallacy of observing that a choice has negative consequences and concluding that the choice was wrong or flawed or mistaken.

      To judge the choice properly, you should look at the sum total of the consequences of the choice and compare them to the sum total of the consequences of other choices.

      In this case, the consequences of liberalism are preferable because any society produces good ideas ('insights') as well as bad ideas ('filth' or 'junk'). Unfortunately which ideas are good, and which are bad, is often not immediately clear. Add to that the problem that people have different preferences: what is good for some is bad for others.

      Who can judge the value of the ideas? At the best of times and with the best of people it is a haphazard endeavor, but in closed societies it is even worse: the decisions are made by autocrats or bureaucrats or theocrats who not only can't judge the ideas but also have political points to make and reputations to bolster.

      So you tolerate open discussion, be it high-brow, low-brow, high-quality, low-quality, or whatever. You don't tolerate it because you want the junk. You tolerate it because trying to remove the junk would risk removing the next James Joyce, or the next Enrico Fermi, or the next John Maynard Keynes, or the Charles Darwin.

      We can't trust autocrats/bureaucrats/theocrats not to censor the next generation of intellectual giants, if they are given the power. Therefore we had best not given them the power to censor anybody.
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      One thing that does bug me about the West is the materialist culture it has. Ever since I started uni people have been staring with gaping mouths at me just because they found out I never drunk alcohol in my life. That is an example. As well as that, when it comes to things like Christmas time all I hear about is shopping, getting wasted and the Sales afterwards!

      I am not saying materialism is all bad, just that it needs to be exercised in moderation. Just like spiritualism and religion need to be exercised in moderation too.
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      (Original post by roots)
      What you do tolerate gives you more problems, you tolerate spreading filth and destructive behaviours/attitudes through the media and that gives you a great number of problems. If someone were to put you through half of what your senses go through, 100 years ago, even less, it would be seen as subversion.
      Are you aware that multiculturalism in its various forms would have been seen as subversive a hundred years ago?

      The Edwardians would not have been very impressed by the building of mosques, creation of ghetto areas, interracial marriages, mass immigration etc.

      I'm not attacking or defending their attitudes, just questioning to what extent you are biting the hand that feeds you.
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      (Original post by ElementX)
      One thing that does bug me about the West is the materialist culture it has. Ever since I started uni people have been staring with gaping mouths at me just because they found out I never drunk alcohol in my life.
      Alcohol has played a large part in European culture for thousands of years. Whilst I don't condone or engage in regular binge drinking, Alcohol is a big part of the social culture of Europe. Whilst I support your right to choose, in this sense it is unusual that you have never drunk alcohol before.
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        (Original post by ElementX)
        One thing that does bug me about the West is the materialist culture it has. Ever since I started uni people have been staring with gaping mouths at me just because they found out I never drunk alcohol in my life. That is an example. As well as that, when it comes to things like Christmas time all I hear about is shopping, getting wasted and the Sales afterwards!

        I am not saying materialism is all bad, just that it needs to be exercised in moderation. Just like spiritualism and religion need to be exercised in moderation too.
        What has alcohol got to do with materialism? :eyebrow: Are you sure you haven't mixed your words up?
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        (Original post by Harrifer)
        Alcohol has played a large part in European culture for thousands of years. Whilst I don't condone or engage in regular binge drinking, Alcohol is a big part of the social culture of Europe. Whilst I support your right to choose, in this sense it is unusual that you have never drunk alcohol before.
        I am aware that alcohol is part of European culture, and I have seen people drinking sensibly and having fun, which is not really a problem. However I feel that today especially, I have met many people who seem to not have fun without binge drinking i.e getting totally wasted. I managed to get a friend of mine to go on a night out to London without sipping a drop of alcohol, and they were very proud of that fact...more than I thought someone should be.


        (Original post by Kolya)
        What has alcohol got to do with materialism? :eyebrow: Are you sure you haven't mixed your words up?
        By materialism in this case I mean the focus on something material, a purely physical thing (alcohol) when it comes to "having fun". As opposed to a non-physical aspect of socialising/companionship e.g. hanging out with someone because they are genuinely good company rather than they being hilariously funny when pissed. The love of alcohol comes under materialism as it is a very physically direct stimulus, very much like sexual intercourse or clubbing (by that I mean listening to really really loud music ).
       
       
       
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