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Everyone is good, because everyone does what their minds tell them is the right thing Watch

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      (Original post by angrydanmarin)
      It's a thought experiment that doesn't require empirical observation. Supposedly, it is impossible to do an action that you genuinely believe to be wrong, as the reasons to not do it outweigh the reasons to do it. Although it seems that i can choose to disregard reason and choose the wrong action anyway, Socrates would say that this is impossible. If you do seem to choose the wrong action, there must be an underlying reason for the unreasonable act. such as gaining power, getting reputation, anything that outweighs the cons.
      Yet it is falsified by some simple observations. Chew on that for a moment.

      In particular, you might see the arguments I made above, regarding Milgram's experiment.
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      (Original post by angrydanmarin)
      I came up with a very similar theory/if not the same one a few years back and have been using it in uni ever since (doing philosophy) so its good to know others are thinking the same way!

      It follows Socrates' idea that we only ever act in a way that is right for us, it is impossible to act in a way that is (in our own view) 'wrong'.

      If combined with the theory that there is no objective morality, there is only subjective opinions of what is right and wrong (subjectivism) then that means that we can only ever do 'good' acts, as they are morally justifiable to the one who is 'acting'. Thus, examples that you have given (hitler and all that lot) aren't morally wrong.

      jolly good show and all that jazz
      Interesting theory however there is some major faults lurking in this theory!
      It's good to know guys like you are thinking about it
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      (Original post by Saichu)
      Yet it is falsified by some simple observations. Chew on that for a moment.

      In particular, you might see the arguments I made above, regarding Milgram's experiment.
      In milligrams experiment, the individual would think that it is the right thing to to electrocute someone as there is a threat to themselves via the experimenter
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        (Original post by angrydanmarin)
        In milligrams experiment, the individual would think that it is the right thing to to electrocute someone as there is a threat to themselves via the experimenter
        Still does not explain all cases (and arguably does not explain the ones it is supposed to). From the wiki article,
        The participant's compliance also decreased when the authority's physical immediacy decreased (Experiments 1–4). For example, in Experiment 2, where participants received telephonic instructions from the experimenter, compliance decreased to 21 percent.
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        (Original post by Innately_Hedonistic)
        so you argue that sin is contrary to reason? acting badly is merely misunderstanding the situation. do you argue that no one would ever do what he knew to be wrong?



        i disagree. i do things sometimes knowing fully that the consequences will be bad, and thus the decision wrong, but i still do it? explain that to me..
        but what is sin?
        and what is acting badly?
        and is it misunderstanding the situation or just interpretting it differently to someone else, the other person may find it greatly disadvantages them so label it as "evil" but perhaps it greatly advantages you.

        Yes I argue that someone makes a decision (sometimes unconcsciously without thinking too much) and the decision they make is related to their belief system, paradigms, random thoughts and feelings that pop up as a result of interpretations of events. If someone believes something has a few negatives, but the positives outweigh the "negatives" according to their self image and desires and paradigms of th world then they will make that decision, provided they are actually thinking about that decision.

        For example. Long term thinking versus short term thinking. If someone acts for the short term but then dies in a few months, versus delayed gratification and still dies in a few months was the long term thinking a good thing.
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        (Original post by sinbad23)
        Yeah so just coming to this epiphany. All the people we dislike
        Oh no, not another one of these.. you're getting mixed up yet again. There's a lot of times when we have to decide between two things. For example, when we find a £10 note on the floor, we want to keep it don't we? On the other hand, we feel we ought to hand it in because it belongs to someone else. If you choose to keep the £10 for yourself, then you're doing what is in your own best interests, not necessarily the GOOD thing. Furthermore, mind is not the only thing capable of guiding action. Instincts can drive us to act, sometimes without thinking. When we touch a burning stove, our hands move away without us having to consciously decide it. The mind isn't involved. The same applies to instincts like rage; some people kill in their rage and regret it afterwards - they didn't think it through. They let their instincts get the "better of them".
        Stop spreading this crap around the internet please..
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        Well that's a load of nonsense, isn't it really?

        If my mind tells me to slaughter babies, that doesn't mean I am "good" for acting upon my mind's whim.

        You can reduce the blame you put on somebody that committs evil acts because of their environmental or genetic circumstances, but to call them "good" is a step too far.
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        (Original post by ShnnyShiz)
        Oh no, not another one of these.. you're getting mixed up yet again. There's a lot of times when we have to decide between two things. For example, when we find a £10 note on the floor, we want to keep it don't we? On the other hand, we feel we ought to hand it in because it belongs to someone else. If you choose to keep the £10 for yourself, then you're doing what is in your own best interests, not necessarily the GOOD thing. Furthermore, mind is not the only thing capable of guiding action. Instincts can drive us to act, sometimes without thinking. When we touch a burning stove, our hands move away without us having to consciously decide it. The mind isn't involved. The same applies to instincts like rage; some people kill in their rage and regret it afterwards - they didn't think it through. They let their instincts get the "better of them".
        Stop spreading this crap around the internet please..
        Oh no scared to challenge your reality and really look at your belief systems are we?

        Yeah we choose to keep it were doing whats in our best interests, but that means its the good thing for "US". Thats all thats relevant. We dont know how other people perceive things. And again it doesnt mean theyre bad because they did the good thing according to their version of reality. So thinking someone is evil according to their version of reality they just did what they believed was right so whats wrong with that nothing?

        Yeh the mind isnt always capable of guiding action you say but its the mind that your not aware of the mind that is in control of pumping your heart and moving your hand. How do you learn how to walk. That mind does it. And what does this even have to do with the first point.

        Please stop spreading your ignorance around the internet, I am discussing things with an open mind, Im assuming you fully believe the word of the qu ran or something and this messes with your idea of a good afterlife so you find this thread threatening.
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        (Original post by milkytea)
        Well that's a load of nonsense, isn't it really?

        If my mind tells me to slaughter babies, that doesn't mean I am "good" for acting upon my mind's whim.

        You can reduce the blame you put on somebody that committs evil acts because of their environmental or genetic circumstances, but to call them "good" is a step too far.
        No if you develop a belief system that tells you that killing certain children eg the children of a race that may one day kill you, then how would you be a bad person for doing what you think is good.

        But their not evil acts, their only evil according to morality laws such as the ten commandments, whos to say what the reasoning is behind them, or if the babies better off dead. I call them good as in they are innocent. Good is innocence right. believing you are doing the right thing. So theyre cant be someone who is doing something they believe is the wrong thing. They may fight an illegal war, but they also believe it would be harder to not fight and get no money and face shame.
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        (Original post by sinbad23)
        No if you develop a belief system that tells you that killing certain children eg the children of a race that may one day kill you, then how would you be a bad person for doing what you think is good.

        But their not evil acts, their only evil according to morality laws such as the ten commandments, whos to say what the reasoning is behind them, or if the babies better off dead. I call them good as in they are innocent. Good is innocence right. believing you are doing the right thing. So theyre cant be someone who is doing something they believe is the wrong thing. They may fight an illegal war, but they also believe it would be harder to not fight and get no money and face shame.
        As I said, it could be used to alleviate some blame from the perpetrator of evil.

        But it does not mean they are good.

        There is a difference.

        Hitler, for example, cannot ever be said to have been "good", even if his brain was ****ed up to the point that he thought slaughtering jews would be a good thing. Forgivable? By the most accepting (and presumably non-Jewish) persons, perhaps. But was he morally a "good" man? Of course not.

        You seem to be judging people as "good" or "evil" on a heave/hell basis. That is wrong. People are judged as good/evil by common judgement, influenced by moral philosophy such as utilitarianism. It's not the religious damnation or salvation idea.
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        (Original post by milkytea)
        As I said, it could be used to alleviate some blame from the perpetrator of evil.

        But it does not mean they are good.

        There is a difference.

        Hitler, for example, cannot ever be said to have been "good", even if his brain was ****ed up to the point that he thought slaughtering jews would be a good thing. Forgivable? By the most accepting (and presumably non-Jewish) persons, perhaps. But was he morally a "good" man? Of course not.

        You seem to be judging people as "good" or "evil" on a heave/hell basis. That is wrong. People are judged as good/evil by common judgement, influenced by moral philosophy such as utilitarianism. It's not the religious damnation or salvation idea.
        There are MILLIONS of people who see hitler as a "good" person. There are millions who see him as a "bad" person. There are millions who see the american government as the force of justice in this world, there are millions who see the american government as evil. It depends which side you want to take.
        To be perfectly honest, I dont know what to think of hitler because I see so much corruption and mass media manipulation in todays society and warfare tactics, I dont know what to believe about things that took place 60 years ago. I dont think hes "good" but someone could walk around with great self esteem if they believed they were doing good and other people believed it.

        I think you could argue that you are evil. If I was to actually bother and spend time on it I coul argue on it in smaller quantities.

        Also hitler had power. Other people may have "selfish/intentions which see others as extreme threats" intentions but be unable to do anything about as they didnt have that power how are they worse or better. Or even may not act on their desires because their lazy. And is it their fault for their desires. If they formed those desires from how they saw the world then surely something natural was going on there.

        The biggest serial killers are kids who got bullied and abused at home and then took out their rage and believed they need to attack first or be attacked. This is not evil, you could say its self defence. How is a child who get viciously abused in life and formed belief systems about the best way to survive and what his view of reality was evil for acting in a way his thoughts dictated were best.

        It does no harm to view things from this perspective. Viewing someone as evil is the opposite of loving them. Would you tell me that "pedophiles"/"homophobes"/"racists"/"sexists"/"religionists"/"ageists"/"people who have killed others" are all evil and need to be killed.
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        (Original post by angrydanmarin)
        In milligrams experiment, the individual would think that it is the right thing to to electrocute someone as there is a threat to themselves via the experimenter
        Wrong. There was no threat from the experimenter; rather, there was the 'positive' factor of the authority of a white coat.
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        (Original post by sinbad23)
        Yeah so just coming to this epiphany. All the people we dislike

        -People who patronise
        -People who break rules a lot
        -People who have killed
        -Liars
        -good two shoes
        -silly

        etc whatever part of your personality you repress is the part of other peoples personalities you unconconsciously dislike. Or you dislike someone who is a threat to you or is bad for "you" your self image.

        And I make this argument for pedophiles, people like hitler/bush.
        Well duh! To be honest though I think those people who truly, truly believe bad stuff isn't bad and have no conscience are few and far between. Also it doesn't really work hugely well when you consider that people may unconsciously find justifications for their crimes such as Hitler, who came to believe it was his God-given mission to drive the undesirables out. So the knowledge that it's an evil act can exist, but hidden in the subconscious.
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        (Original post by sinbad23)
        There are MILLIONS of people who see hitler as a "good" person. There are millions who see him as a "bad" person. There are millions who see the american government as the force of justice in this world, there are millions who see the american government as evil. It depends which side you want to take.
        To be perfectly honest, I dont know what to think of hitler because I see so much corruption and mass media manipulation in todays society and warfare tactics, I dont know what to believe about things that took place 60 years ago. I dont think hes "good" but someone could walk around with great self esteem if they believed they were doing good and other people believed it.

        I think you could argue that you are evil. If I was to actually bother and spend time on it I coul argue on it in smaller quantities.

        Also hitler had power. Other people may have "selfish/intentions which see others as extreme threats" intentions but be unable to do anything about as they didnt have that power how are they worse or better. Or even may not act on their desires because their lazy. And is it their fault for their desires. If they formed those desires from how they saw the world then surely something natural was going on there.

        The biggest serial killers are kids who got bullied and abused at home and then took out their rage and believed they need to attack first or be attacked. This is not evil, you could say its self defence. How is a child who get viciously abused in life and formed belief systems about the best way to survive and what his view of reality was evil for acting in a way his thoughts dictated were best.

        It does no harm to view things from this perspective. Viewing someone as evil is the opposite of loving them. Would you tell me that "pedophiles"/"homophobes"/"racists"/"sexists"/"religionists"/"ageists"/"people who have killed others" are all evil and need to be killed.
        As for you: I presume this means you no longer condemn the evil American-Zionist wikileaks conspiracy, as per last week? After all, if everything is utterly relative, your view has no more weight than any other's.

        In reality, this extremely simplistic and surrenderingly shoulder-shrugging theory ('There are MILLIONS of people who see hitler as a "good" person. There are millions who see him as a "bad" person') is the gift brought to humanity by postmodernism (not an 'epiphany').

        I can't be bothered to refute this now, but I suggest you watch http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_...t_s_right.html
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        (Original post by sinbad23)
        There are MILLIONS of people who see hitler as a "good" person. There are millions who see him as a "bad" person. There are millions who see the american government as the force of justice in this world, there are millions who see the american government as evil. It depends which side you want to take.
        To be perfectly honest, I dont know what to think of hitler because I see so much corruption and mass media manipulation in todays society and warfare tactics, I dont know what to believe about things that took place 60 years ago. I dont think hes "good" but someone could walk around with great self esteem if they believed they were doing good and other people believed it.

        I think you could argue that you are evil. If I was to actually bother and spend time on it I coul argue on it in smaller quantities.

        Also hitler had power. Other people may have "selfish/intentions which see others as extreme threats" intentions but be unable to do anything about as they didnt have that power how are they worse or better. Or even may not act on their desires because their lazy. And is it their fault for their desires. If they formed those desires from how they saw the world then surely something natural was going on there.

        The biggest serial killers are kids who got bullied and abused at home and then took out their rage and believed they need to attack first or be attacked. This is not evil, you could say its self defence. How is a child who get viciously abused in life and formed belief systems about the best way to survive and what his view of reality was evil for acting in a way his thoughts dictated were best.

        It does no harm to view things from this perspective. Viewing someone as evil is the opposite of loving them. Would you tell me that "pedophiles"/"homophobes"/"racists"/"sexists"/"religionists"/"ageists"/"people who have killed others" are all evil and need to be killed.
        You're missing the point.

        Let's look at this from the utilitarian perspective.

        A child is bullied. They then grow up to kill 10 people in serial killings. More unhappiness is created by the 10 deaths than by the child being bullied. That means that what they have done is evil.

        As I said, some blame can be alleviated because of people's environment, genetics and circumstances. But that does not mean that everyone is morally good.

        You haven't seemed to have grasped this point, so either respond to it in your reply or there is really no point continuing this discussion.

        Also: Millions see Hitler as a good person? Put the crack pipe down.
       
       
       
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