Working as a paralegal as a way into the Bar??? Watch

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shinytoy
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#21
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#21
(Original post by SevenStars)
I was actually quite particular in stating GOOD candidates, and I even capitalised it and emboldened it to be sure that what I was saying was clear.

Fortunately you included the link with your above 'quote', which actually does not state what you have said it does, because it goes on to quantify the statement, indicating pretty much what I said in my previous post re overseas and previous BVC students continuing to apply. The ratio 400:1 is very specifically referred to as in "some of the better known chambers" and also states "although these are of course multiple applications – many apply to several chambers".

No one is denying that pupillage is difficult to obtain, but there's no point in trying to make it seem far worse than it is.
i highly doubt that 99/100 bvc grads are NOT good candidates :rolleyes: bearing in mind most places ask for a minimum of BBB and good GCSEs to get into LLB in the first place.

there is no way of knowing which candidates are 'good', so purely on stats

2500 BVC grads per year x 4 options on OLPAS = 10,000 applications
500 pupillages

assuming 500 people of those in year one get pupillage that leaves 2000 to apply the next year.

Year 2:

2500 new bar grads x 4 OLPAS = 10000
PLUS
2000 grads who didnt get in last year re-applying x 4 choices = 8000

18000 applications
500 pupillages

assuming the number of BVC grads in any given year is 2500 and decreases by 500 per year, by year 5 potentially there could be

2500 new grads from bvc in the current year
2000 grads from last year
1500 grads from the year before that
1000 grads from two years before that
500 grads from three years before that
_____

7500 potential pupillage applicants

7500 x 4 olpas places = 30000 applications
yet still only 500 pupillages

= 2% chance of pupillage or 2 successes per 100 application


this isnt perfect because obviously some may give up applying before 5 years, and not everyone will apply for UK pupillage.

but you see my point, factoring in a)more than one application on OLPAS, and b)repeat applications per year then there will be much much less than 1 in 4 chance of getting pupillage.

if it was 1 in 4, since you get 4 choices on OLPAS, everone would get at least one offer.
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shinytoy
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(Original post by LostInLaw)
Arguably, it can be done, yes but there are a lot of people who will argue that an LLM doesn't "make up" for a first degree, it just may give you a slight edge over other similar students from lower ranked unis. Certainly the case for solicitors, I'm not sure how the bar perceives additional qualifications but I would have thought it's similar, the exception being something like Oxford's BCL. The fact is the bar is still based on academics far more than most professions. It is competitive. Any advantage you can have, you should take and for most people that is going to the best university possible and working to get the 2:2/1st.

Of course, there are students from lower ranked universities who succeed at the Bar (one of the barristers I know is ex-Southampton Institute, what is now Solent) but they're in the minority.

Things like LLMs, paralegalling experience are all well and good and if you have that experience then you need to do your best to work it to your advantage. Realistically, I don't think they do all that much to set you apart from every other qualified applicant out there and they often aren't worthwhile enough to make up for flaws such as below average academics.

lost my brther. dont bother with BVC. go into taxation. tax is based on law. google "tolleys tax orange and yellow books" and you will see what i mean.
do tax exams, paid for by your employer, AND starting on a salary of about £25k while training and by age 25 you could be on about £35k+ salary working 9 - 7pm like me (though i do wokr for a good firm). cushy but dull. and they do not discriminate on uni, race or gender. all they care about is your brain - can you pass your exams? can you be nice to clients?

sorted. deloitte & touche offers internships and work experience and they lovvve law grads. pwc is more snobby and prefer oxbrisge but pay a bit more.
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SevenStars
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ShinyToy: Clearly you can do the calculations you have done and present them, but you are, unfortunately, not in a position to expect anyone to take them seriously when they are based on false premises.
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shinytoy
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(Original post by SevenStars)
ShinyToy: Clearly you can do the calculations you have done and present them, but you are, unfortunately, not in a position to expect anyone to take them seriously when they are based on false premises.
my point was not to prove an exact percentage, but to prove that there is not a, as you stated, a 1 in 4 chance of getting a pupillage. the stats when calculated properly will be much lower due to, as i already said, multiple applciations, and people re-applying each year. are you on pupillage yourself? or are you still a student in the land of D-R-E-A-M??

how about you post back on here after you finish school and finish BVC and then come telling everyone oh how easy it is for any good applicant to get a pupillage, and how securing a place on the BVC is not much harder than passing a driving test in brentwood (1 in 4 = 25% vs 28% pass rate in Brentwood) :rolleyes:

*rolls eyes at the wannabe wonder kiddo*

get real and grow up
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SevenStars
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(Original post by shinytoy)
my point was not to prove an exact percentage, but to prove that there is not a, as you stated, a 1 in 4 chance of getting a pupillage. the stats when calculated properly will be much lower due to, as i already said, multiple applciations, and people re-applying each year. are you on pupillage yourself? or are you still a student in the land of D-R-E-A-M??

how about you post back on here after you finish school and finish BVC and then come telling everyone oh how easy it is for any good applicant to get a pupillage, and how securing a place on the BVC is not much harder than passing a driving test in brentwood (1 in 4 = 25% vs 28% pass rate in Brentwood) :rolleyes:

*rolls eyes at the wannabe wonder kiddo*

get real and grow up
You're showing your own immaturity by a) making assumptions and b) being rude. Neither is becoming of someone who must be at least 25 years old, given your previous posts.

Your premises remain incorrect.
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judgejohndeed
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This thread made me laugh, I'm worried about getting a pupillage and I'm going to UCL, let alone a frigging poly.
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shinytoy
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(Original post by judgejohndeed)
This thread made me laugh, I'm worried about getting a pupillage and I'm going to UCL, let alone a frigging poly.
oh dont worry, sevenstars clearly has stated that he is certain you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a pupilage: so given you have 4 olpas choices you will definately get one.
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shinytoy
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(Original post by SevenStars)
You're showing your own immaturity by a) making assumptions and b) being rude. Neither is becoming of someone who must be at least 25 years old, given your previous posts.
Your premises remain incorrect.
re-read my post u quoted then tell me which part is incorrect. All you have done is insist the chances of pupillage are 1 in 4 with no reason why that is. I have clearly explained why it is certain to be much lower but maybe your law textbook doesnt have a mathematical reasoning chapter. And im certain you are not in the middle of pupillage nor have the offer of one cos otherwise yould have the maturity to be realistic. there is no way you would be saying it is easy to obtain one. If the odds were 1:4, with 4 choices on olpas almost everyone would get an offer fisrt time round. Hun you might like to argue but you also need a brain to become a lawyer
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chalks
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(Original post by shinytoy)
re-read my post u quoted then tell me which part is incorrect. All you have done is insist the chances of pupillage are 1 in 4 with no reason why that is. I have clearly explained why it is certain to be much lower but maybe your law textbook doesnt have a mathematical reasoning chapter. And im certain you are not in the middle of pupillage nor have the offer of one cos otherwise yould have the maturity to be realistic. there is no way you would be saying it is easy to obtain one. If the odds were 1:4, with 4 choices on olpas almost everyone would get an offer fisrt time round. Hun you might like to argue but you also need a brain to become a lawyer
A couple of things here. The numbers you're using are flawed for 2 reasons:

- first, they don't (and can't) take account of the fact that candidates have differing levels of abilities and qualifications. That was the point Sevenstars was making - to assess chances of success in securing a pupillage it makes sense to only look at those are realistically in with a chance. To do that, you need to strip out a percentage of applicants. Unfortunately, it appears that there are surprisingly large numbers of students on that course who are never destined to achieve pupillage. Include them in the stats if you wish, but it gives a flawed pciture. Likewise, one needs to realise that not all sets are the same - some are obviously far more picky than others and, more importantly, many will specialise in areas of the law which are not attractive to certain applicants. You can't easily model this factor but it's important to realise that, for many applicants, not all chambers are "in the game" as far as they're concerned.

- secondly, I don't think your use of the number of applications per candidate is correct in calculating the odds. Multiplying the number of applicants by the number of applications they can make gives a distorted inaccurate result. Would you say that if there were 2000 applicants for 500 pupillages, and ALL applicants could apply to ALL chambers, the chances would be 1:1,000,000 (2000 x 500)? That can't be right!The reason it can't be right is that an applicant can only be successful once. So, when calculating the odds they remain the same when looking at each individual application. That is why your example of odds of 1:4 will be satisfied because everyone can apply to 4 firms doesn't work: just because you have 4 applications doesn't mean that you'll be successful when you have a 1:4 chance. That logic only works when, for example, you consider a lottery situation where it is possible to win more than once.

So, generally, I think one needs to take the following into consideration:

- odds will be lengthened by the number of previous years' applicants still trying to secure pupillage. This will dramatically increase odds.
- odds will be shortened generally due to the fact that a significant proportion of applicants are not, realistically, of the right quality. Obviously, if you're in that unfortunate category then your personal odds are poor. If you're of decent quality (excellent academics, university and correct ECs) then your personal odds improve
- different sets will have radically different criteria and it is near impossible to generalise across the entirety of those offering pupillage
- likewise, the difference in applicants means that it is difficult to generalise across an entire cohot of applicants

2 last points:

- I don't understand your continued reference to driving tests in Brentwood
- at little less aggression in your posts makes for better debate and discussion. This topic is a complex and emotive issue - but making remarks such as "go back to school" and "you need a brain to be a lawyer" smack of the playground.
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SevenStars
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(Original post by chalks)
...
Chalks, you have far more patience than I.

Though if truth be told, nostalgia for the old days makes me think I might rather enjoy being back in the playground again, albeit momentarily.
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shinytoy
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(Original post by chalks)
A couple of things here. The numbers you're using are flawed for 2 reasons:

- first, they don't (and can't) take account of the fact that candidates have differing levels of abilities and qualifications. That was the point Sevenstars was making - to assess chances of success in securing a pupillage it makes sense to only look at those are realistically in with a chance. To do that, you need to strip out a percentage of applicants. Unfortunately, it appears that there are surprisingly large numbers of students on that course who are never destined to achieve pupillage. Include them in the stats if you wish, but it gives a flawed pciture. Likewise, one needs to realise that not all sets are the same - some are obviously far more picky than others and, more importantly, many will specialise in areas of the law which are not attractive to certain applicants. You can't easily model this factor but it's important to realise that, for many applicants, not all chambers are "in the game" as far as they're concerned.
i highly doubt a substantial proportion of BVC graduates have 2:2s or 3rds. You would be kidding yourself to think otherwise. My friend has completed BVC at College of Law and NO-ONE had below a 2:1

- secondly, I don't think your use of the number of applications per candidate is correct in calculating the odds. Multiplying the number of applicants by the number of applications they can make gives a distorted inaccurate result. Would you say that if there were 2000 applicants for 500 pupillages, and ALL applicants could apply to ALL chambers, the chances would be 1:1,000,000 (2000 x 500)? That can't be right!
all applicants cannot aply to all chambers because you only can have a maximum of 4 choices on OLPAS.

[/quote]
The reason it can't be right is that an applicant can only be successful once.
[/quote]

not at all, they could get offers from more than once set of chambers. hence why i have factored this in.

So, when calculating the odds they remain the same when looking at each individual application. That is why your example of odds of 1:4 will be satisfied because everyone can apply to 4 firms doesn't work: just because you have 4 applications doesn't mean that you'll be successful when you have a 1:4 chance. That logic only works when, for example, you consider a lottery situation where it is possible to win more than once.

So, generally, I think one needs to take the following into consideration:

- odds will be lengthened by the number of previous years' applicants still trying to secure pupillage. This will dramatically increase odds.
odds being "lengthened"?? wtf does that mean? did you even study maths at school? or are you still at school :rolleyes:

if anything, previous applicants re-applying would reduce odds of any one application recieveing an offer since for each pupillage there would be applications from both current and up to 5 previous years of BVC grads.

- odds will be shortened generally due to the fact that a significant proportion of applicants are not, realistically, of the right quality. Obviously, if you're in that unfortunate category then your personal odds are poor. If you're of decent quality (excellent academics, university and correct ECs) then your personal odds improve
obviously i cannot factor in personal odds for each individual, but if a chambers has 1 pupillage and two candidates, your odds of being the best are 1:2. if a chambers has 1 pupillage and 500 applications, chances of your application being the best are 1:500. the number of other applicants will thus affect your personal odds.

- different sets will have radically different criteria and it is near impossible to generalise across the entirety of those offering pupillage
- likewise, the difference in applicants means that it is difficult to generalise across an entire cohot of applicants
you can generalise, there is a whole field of science called statistics. though given your references to odds being 'lengthened', 'shortened' combined with your basic lack of understanding of simple statistics and probability indicates to me a)you have not studies maths up to a level standard or even GCSE grade a
b) you lack logical reasoning. you are unable to assimilate simple generic arguments based on mathematical data. you cannot respond and deduce conclusions. therefore i wold assume you are not currently on the BVC, and most likely have no degree either.

from this i can inform you, you should not concern yourself with the general odds of getting into the bar. you would find yourself in the minority of applicants who are significantly under par.

2 last points:

- I don't understand your continued reference to driving tests in Brentwood
- at little less aggression in your posts makes for better debate and discussion. This topic is a complex and emotive issue - but making remarks such as "go back to school" and "you need a brain to be a lawyer" smack of the playground.
my reference to driving tests in brentwood are a comparison between the test pass rate (28%) and the statistic sevenstars is stating of 25% of an application to the bar being successful. the chances of either being a success are of comparable probability. though see my comment above - i wouldnt expect you to understand this.

(Original post by SevenStars)
Chalks, you have far more patience than I.

Though if truth be told, nostalgia for the old days makes me think I might rather enjoy being back in the playground again, albeit momentarily.
wait...you're still in school arent you :rolleyes:

both of you come back in 10 years when you are adults and then post about how easy it is to get pupillage. until then, just go back to playing white wig dressup in the playgrounds.
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LostInLaw
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#32
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(Original post by shinytoy)
i highly doubt a substantial proportion of BVC graduates have 2:2s or 3rds. You would be kidding yourself to think otherwise. My friend has completed BVC at College of Law and NO-ONE had below a 2:1
I would be very VERY sceptical of that.

This is how law school applications essentially work:
Law school: Are you a living person with a qualifying law degree?
Applicant: Yes...
Law school: Good, do you have £18k to give us for your course fees?
Applicant: Erm, well, I'm going to beg, borrow and steal it but I will do, yes.
Law school: Excellent. Congratulations, welcome to our institution.

They don't care whether you're good, they don't care whether you're likely to succeed at obtaining pupillage, they care that you have a pulse and access to the funds they want from you. That's it. Go have a search and you will find year after year, legal commentators asking whether law schools owe their students more responsibility because they let so many study qualifications that will be of no use to them.

I've already linked you to an article where CoL themselves admit that "over 60%" of their students obtained a 2:1 or higher. (68.4% in 2008-9) Obviously some of those 2:2s (and lower) are on the GDL, LPC and the other qualifications that law schools offer but we can presume a fairly even spread due to the fairly undiscriminating application process. BPP confirmed 74% of their students had a 2:1 or higher.

So no, we're not "kidding ourselves", there are huge numbers of students who are unfortunately very unlikely to obtain pupillage because they just aren't suitable candidates and weren't the second they graduated from their undergraduate degree.

therefore i wold assume you are not currently on the BVC, and most likely have no degree either.

from this i can inform you, you should not concern yourself with the general odds of getting into the bar. you would find yourself in the minority of applicants who are significantly under par.
Considering Chalks has been in practice at a law firm for over 10 years and is a respected opinion in the law forums, you're making yourself look very silly shiny...

my reference to driving tests in brentwood are a comparison between the test pass rate (28%) and the statistic sevenstars is stating of 25% of an application to the bar being successful. the chances of either being a success are of comparable probability. though see my comment above - i wouldnt expect you to understand this.
The problem with this analogy is that the success rates aren't reliant on the same things. Passing a driving test relies mostly on the applicant's driving ability on that day. Other factors such as traffic, weather, the route taken have a minor influence but it is created to test YOUR driving ability. There is little you can do to improve your odds apart from practice.

Pupillage depends on your suitability as a candidate for the chambers you're applying to, the application/place ratio at that chambers and a certain amount of luck that you're the best person applying.

If you apply to the top sets, things are likely to be a lot more competitive (which is what your site claiming 1/400 was referring to, not every single pupillage out there). If you're applying for a provincial chambers or wish to specify in an unpopular area of the law, your odds are significantly greater as there the applicant/pupillage ratio will be lower.

Eventually, it doesn't matter how much you play the game and give yourself the best odds possible because you're not sure what you're up against. It takes ONE person to be better than you in the eyes of chambers and you've lost out on pupillage with that chambers in that cycle. With a driving test, if you're the second best candidate of the day, you still get a licence.

It's difficult to model the statistics because we don't know the spread of individual candidates to individual chambers (with some outliers really skewing the probabilities), it's hard to account for changing fashions in legal practice and how long it takes for that to impact on applications, we have little idea just how many unsuitable candidates are applying...

wait...you're still in school arent you :rolleyes:

both of you come back in 10 years when you are adults and then post about how easy it is to get pupillage. until then, just go back to playing white wig dressup in the playgrounds.
Nobody is claiming it's easy to obtain pupillage. It's not. It's not quite as dire a situation as you're making out either though.

There are a number of pupillages out there and a number of good candidates to fill them. Yes, some good candidates will be left disappointed at their first attempt but it's not quite so awful that nobody should bother.
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shinytoy
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#33
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(Original post by LostInLaw)
Ah. Thought I recognised the name. Well not I regret wasting time on my essay length post...
what? i have a first class LLB, i graduated at the top of my year, worked for a big 4 firm whilst studying post grad in finance (taxation). i was offered to publish my dissertation in jurisprudence, but i was too busy doing post grad quals in finance and working full time.

although i enjoy jurisprudence, i could see i would not make as much money and a viable future in it as i would in finance.

meanwhile although i am highly successful in finance i have also completed various diplomas in complemetary healthcare as a hobby on the side, and was considering making a career move from finance (well paid but boring and doesnt help people) into something more beneficial to society such as healthcare.

just because you all may be in awe/ disbelief my successes, ambition and career but really, does that make it any less true? no. it doesnt. i never considered myself 'unbelievably successful' but i guess i wouldnt have got to where i am unless i was indeed outstanding.

when you guys graduate and finish school and everything, you can consider me someone to aspire to. what can i say. i have a full and interesting life. i work hard. when you guys graduate you will realise you have to push yourself forward in life. the world isnt going to fall at your feet just because you have a 2:1 degree. it isnt special anymore. to stand out you have to strive to achieve more like i have done.

i mean all of your collective views on how easy you think it is to get to a pupillage are kinda moot since you are all still in school/uni and havent even started the bvc yet. when i was at uni in years 1 and 2 everyone said "yeah i work sooo hard, im sooo gonna be a barrister. although it is hard i will do sooo well since i am one of the best" :rolleyes:
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shinytoy
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#34
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#34
(Original post by LostInLaw)
I would be very VERY sceptical of that.


There are a number of pupillages out there and a number of good candidates to fill them. Yes, some good candidates will be left disappointed at their first attempt but it's not quite so awful that nobody should bother.
so really, to say the odds of getting a pupillage are comparable to 1 in 4 would be far from the truth?

point proved.

Considering Chalks has been in practice at a law firm for over 10 years and is a respected opinion in the law forums, you're making yourself look very silly shiny...
i highly doubt that is true - otherwise, what is a middle aged (LLB+BVC+one year gap+pupillage+10 years = at least age 34/35 if not older) lawyer doing on TSR student forum??? dont you think thats weird?
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LostInLaw
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(Original post by shinytoy)
so really, to say the odds of getting a pupillage are comparable to 1 in 4 would be far from the truth?
It's impossible to generalise it like that, it depends entirely on the candidate and the chambers involved. There is such wide variation in both and we can't predict the competition against individual candidates. If a very good applicant wants to play the system by applying for a chambers specialising in less popular work and receives less applicants, then clearly their chances of obtaining pupillage increase significantly. If a 2:2 candidate from London Met applies to 10 Old Square which is offering only 1 pupillage, their chances are virtually nil and not just because the numbers are against them.

If you want ANY pupillage, the odds probably aren't too bad. Most applicants will be looking for certain types of work, may want to work in specific chambers and with each condition you come up with, the odds alter.

No matter how good your odds though, it takes one person better than you to be applying for the same pupillage and you've lost out.

i highly doubt that is true - otherwise, what is a middle aged (LLB+BVC+one year gap+pupillage+10 years = at least age 34/35 if not older) lawyer doing on TSR student forum??? dont you think thats weird?
Not particularly, there's quite a few practising legal professionals on the boards. They offer a lot of relevant and true advice which is useful considering the huge amounts of misinformation that gets floated around the forums. I won't suddenly stop posting once I begin my TC because I'd like to think that my experience can help other students.
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