Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JediArron)
    I see, you're basically telling me with enough determination and effort you can understand anything? Does that mean in the world, or is that being 'unreasonable'? However with your theory it should apply with the most hardest, say maths problem in the world, but just require 100,000 + hours of effort?
    yeah i agree with what that guy and you are saying.
    although there is an academic 'ceiling', i think its only glass and you can smash through it with enough time and effort. with enough time and training anyone can do the hardest maths problem...i dont think general people are hardwired that differently. of course, it may take some people longer than a lifetime, so if you want to count that then no they wouldnt be able to do it, lol!
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by POWCATTY)
    of course, it may take some people longer than a lifetime, so if you want to count that then no they wouldnt be able to do it, lol!
    I think this is a key point; there may not be a ceiling but it will come to a point where your progress is so slow that it simply takes too much time for further progress to be a viable option.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Of course people are naturally better at some subjects than others, due to genetics.
    Less effort is required for the subjects you're competent at but at the same time you're willing to commit more time for that subject because you know that it's one of your strengths.

    Is there a academic peak? I don't know. Abilities are obvious but I think you could obtain high results in the less competent areas by putting in a lot of time and effort because if you think about it, nobody becomes a straight A student overnight. They might have more natural ability but they still have to put in effort regardless.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JediArron)
    I see, you're basically telling me with enough determination and effort you can understand anything? Does that mean in the world, or is that being 'unreasonable'? However with your theory it should apply with the most hardest, say maths problem in the world, but just require 100,000 + hours of effort?
    No one can understand everything. And not everyone will be able to understand everything a certain person is able to (as said before): Even if everyone are able to understand degree-level math, there will be some individuals who understand it in a fraction of the time/effort. These individuals will be able to get further than other, because in the end we don't have an infinite amount of time. There also comes a point where you can't just rely on learning what other people have discovered: you have to discover yourself. So to say that everyone have the ability to understand high-level mathematics isn't the same as saying everyone have the ability to become a great mathematician.


    (Original post by JediArron)
    May I ask, why would some people have an advantage understanding something outside an ideal environment? Is it related to how much they listened in class, or genetics, visual, auditory and practical learners.

    However if it's to do with the way it's taught, then if it was taught in all 3 (or 4 - theres 1 more I forgot) forms, it would be possible for everyone to understand it outside class?

    Say you taught someone to 3 people, each a different style of learner. They all put the same amount of effort in and concentration, would it then possible for everyone to understand something out of a non-ideal enviroment?
    The advantage exists both in ideal and non-ideal situations. People who are not advantaged in their mathematical ability might need an ideal environment to understand what those who are advantaged can understand easily in a non-ideal environment. I think it is down to both genetics and upbringing environment.

    And if we are talking about non-ideal situations, I think personality is very important: you have to be able to take advantage of the current environment as much as possible, and as always work hard. And again, that everyone can understand does not mean they will get it as quickly, non-ideal environment or not.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    I think environment growing up, encouragement, and the quality of teaching has an effect, but then there is a point where personal ability to learn does come into it, depending on whether the person has discovered a method of learning that suits them. Also I think some people are more inclined to care than others, so if someone doesnt see their learning as important then they'll hit a mental block and be unable to learn it.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Seems I am one of the few that believe there is no real "peak" that you can hit. I've always thought that if somebody couldn't understand something, then they weren't looking at it the right way for them. That is, perspective is what's important, and if people prefer a certain method of thinking over another, then they'll understand easier if it's presented that way. Mathematics is a good example; the number of people I've met that said they couldn't do it, but when seemingly random equations and principles were explained with the aid of geometrical figures and graphs, they understood perfectly well and easily.
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by JediArron)
    Hey guys, there is something t hat has been bothering me. I wasn't sure which section to post it in, so I'll just post it in here, as well as the chat section.

    I was wondering, does everyone have the ability to do as good as someone else in something? I understand that genetics give an advantage to those 'lucky, special' people in certain fields. And therefore some people who aren't 'naturally gifted' have to try harder.

    My Science teacher (with a PhD) said there is a point in which everyone reaches an academic peak and they can't learn some really hard stuff. However I have spoken to other people who have said it's a mixture, or it's all just dependant on how hard you try?

    I actually raised this topic as I have just started AS (6th form) and wondering if I have potential to get all A's. Just for the record I am studying: Maths, History, Classical Civilisations and Physics. I am almost certain that I will struggle in Maths and Physics.

    Please share your opinions on this topic
    It probably is true to suggest everyone has a threshold on their intellectual capacities by virtue of their phsyiology (most obviously the way their brain is 'wired up' to advantageous or disadvantageous effect). But it's easily overstated and easily self-reinforcing. I left school with virtually no qualifications and (ironically) a history teacher who made it plain in my school reports I'd never achieve anything academically. Lack of academic success at school in my case was (among other things) partly about the poverty of state education in the 1980s and partly about my own indifference to academic subjects. I left school with one 'O' level - in art - and that's it. I didn't return to education until I was in my thirties and - to cut a long story short - I graduated from Newcastle University with a first in history in 2005 and at the same institution gained an MA in the same subject (with distinction) in 2009. What changed? My head was in the right place, I was genuinely interested in the subject and I worked harder than I've ever worked on anything before or after. Everyone's circumstances are different of course, so I'm not one of those people who will say 'anyone can do it because I did' but if you've got motivation and opportunity, and where necessary the right support, you can achieve an awful lot. Sadly, of course, we live in the kind of society which tends to provide opportunity and support according to how wealthy you or your parents are.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Oswy)
    Everyone's circumstances are different of course, so I'm not one of those people who will say 'anyone can do it because I did'
    Very true. I quite resent the statement 'if someone can do it, so can you'. Personally to me it's a very narrow minded and superficial way of thinking.

    but if you've got motivation and opportunity, and where necessary the right support, you can achieve an awful lot. .
    this. sometimes support is one of the main things that could determine whether we succeed or fail in something.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Simple answer no.

    I believe that there are people with an innate talent for certain subjects etc.

    However, i would stress the fact that with enough work then most people will be able to attain a good solid grade or level. Most just dont bother and so fail and blame it on their talent when they show no hard work either.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by truechristian91)
    Simple answer no.

    I believe that there are people with an innate talent for certain subjects etc.

    However, i would stress the fact that with enough work then most people will be able to attain a good solid grade or level. Most just dont bother and so fail and blame it on their talent when they show no hard work either.
    That's actually a very good point, they might say 'I'm incapable' - to a level thats an acceptable answer (if you're doing a PhD at uni for something that doesn't interest you it might be possible to understand it, but just take years?) However I would like to believe that most people just give up and take the 'lazy/easy' way out
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    If you don't learn english properly until you hit puberty. Thats the peak where you can't learn no more. But yes i believe everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and it is important as a society to maintain our strengths and use it to benefit our country.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    I wouldn't say there was a peak. That's too definitive, but I would definitely say that there are points at which no amount of hard work will get you further.
    Offline

    16
    (Original post by Oswy)
    It probably is true to suggest everyone has a threshold on their intellectual capacities by virtue of their phsyiology (most obviously the way their brain is 'wired up' to advantageous or disadvantageous effect). But it's easily overstated and easily self-reinforcing. I left school with virtually no qualifications and (ironically) a history teacher who made it plain in my school reports I'd never achieve anything academically. Lack of academic success at school in my case was (among other things) partly about the poverty of state education in the 1980s and partly about my own indifference to academic subjects. I left school with one 'O' level - in art - and that's it. I didn't return to education until I was in my thirties and - to cut a long story short - I graduated from Newcastle University with a first in history in 2005 and at the same institution gained an MA in the same subject (with distinction) in 2009. What changed? My head was in the right place, I was genuinely interested in the subject and I worked harder than I've ever worked on anything before or after. Everyone's circumstances are different of course, so I'm not one of those people who will say 'anyone can do it because I did' but if you've got motivation and opportunity, and where necessary the right support, you can achieve an awful lot. Sadly, of course, we live in the kind of society which tends to provide opportunity and support according to how wealthy you or your parents are.
    Beautiful, you personify what i talk about.. I don't feel anyone is naturally dumb, just some require more time and effort to get the same results.... Congrats on your success
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rebellious-Steve)
    I wouldn't say there was a peak. That's too definitive, but I would definitely say that there are points at which no amount of hard work will get you further.
    I chuckled when I read that.
    That is pretty much a defining a peak.

    Back on topic, you're saying that no amount of hard work and time would get you further? Is this because of that it would be possible however it would just take you a life time.

    Also do you think it is possible for anyone (that puts enough hard work and time into them) can get all A's?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I think what people mean when they talk about natural talent or cleverness is that it enables a person to learn/improve faster than others. That doesn't mean others cannot get to the same level, it's just that it might take them longer. This means a bit of patience & dedication is needed though, and many people find it much easier to just give up and do something else at the first sign of any challenge.
    A good example is mathematics. Up to A-level the material isn't really that hard, but it does seem that way at first. So, people try it briefly, realise they can't figure it out immediately, then get flustered and just decide "I can't do maths". That's bull****, I don't accept that from anyone. Anyone can do it, it only needs practice. It's just a matter of practicing enough so that you become aware of all the little tricks involved, just some people pick up on them quicker than others.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SwingOnTheSpiral88)
    I think what people mean when they talk about natural talent or cleverness is that it enables a person to learn/improve faster than others. That doesn't mean others cannot get to the same level, it's just that it might take them longer. This means a bit of patience & dedication is needed though, and many people find it much easier to just give up and do something else at the first sign of any challenge.
    A good example is mathematics. Up to A-level the material isn't really that hard, but it does seem that way at first. So, people try it briefly, realise they can't figure it out immediately, then get flustered and just decide "I can't do maths". That's bull****, I don't accept that from anyone. Anyone can do it, it only needs practice. It's just a matter of practicing enough so that you become aware of all the little tricks involved, just some people pick up on them quicker than others.
    Very good point, quite motivational too. I was trying to do Maths yesterday, I went through the same equation and working steps various times, however I still got the wrong answer and couldn't see what I done wrong, but I gave up, however I can't keep doing that or I'll fall behind ^^
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JediArron)
    Very good point, quite motivational too. I was trying to do Maths yesterday, I went through the same equation and working steps various times, however I still got the wrong answer and couldn't see what I done wrong, but I gave up, however I can't keep doing that or I'll fall behind ^^
    just keep chipping away man, it's always simpler than it seems to be. it helps to have a break then come back to it later.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SwingOnTheSpiral88)
    I think what people mean when they talk about natural talent or cleverness is that it enables a person to learn/improve faster than others. That doesn't mean others cannot get to the same level, it's just that it might take them longer. This means a bit of patience & dedication is needed though, and many people find it much easier to just give up and do something else at the first sign of any challenge.
    And also, a lot of luck.

    A good example is mathematics. Up to A-level the material isn't really that hard, but it does seem that way at first. So, people try it briefly, realise they can't figure it out immediately, then get flustered and just decide "I can't do maths". That's bull****, I don't accept that from anyone. Anyone can do it, it only needs practice. It's just a matter of practicing enough so that you become aware of all the little tricks involved, just some people pick up on them quicker than others.
    Hurm. Well that depends on why they say they can't do it anymore. If it's just 'giving up' and 'I can't do it anymore' then there must be a reason why the person is giving up. It's not fair for you to say you don't accept people giving up and it's bull**** just because they 'can't do it'. We don't know what's going on in their heads at the time. Maybe they actually could do it but because of their unluckiness; crap teachers, poor environment, not supportive friends and families and such, can impact your studies.

    I completely understand your example with the A-level stuff but that's just one situation which basically leads to a generalization. If you put it in a totally different situation e.g. work, research, etc, then I'm sorry, it can be hilariously misleading and somewhat dangerous to follow.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kka25)
    And also, a lot of luck.



    Hurm. Well that depends on why they say they can't do it anymore. If it's just 'giving up' and 'I can't do it anymore' then there must be a reason why the person is giving up. It's not fair for you to say you don't accept people giving up and it's bull**** just because they 'can't do it'. We don't know what's going on in their heads at the time. Maybe they actually could do it but because of their unluckiness; crap teachers, poor environment, not supportive friends and families and such, can impact your studies.

    I completely understand your example with the A-level stuff but that's just one situation which basically leads to a generalization. If you put it in a totally different situation e.g. work, research, etc, then I'm sorry, it can be hilariously misleading and somewhat dangerous to follow.
    Well yeah there are gonna be factors affecting student success like how good a teacher is and stuff, but that doesn't make the basic rules of mathematics any more complicated because they really aren't complicated concepts. A student should not be inherently incapable of grasping them.

    Sure you can combine them in ever more complicated ways, but they are all rooted in simple rules that you just have to practice until you can apply them automatically without even having to think about it, and the more problems you do, the more you become able to spot all the subtleties in problems that might otherwise trip you up.
    I definitely think anyone is capable of taking the baby steps that lead to the higher end stuff, it's about building confidence as much as anything.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SwingOnTheSpiral88)
    Well yeah there are gonna be factors affecting student success like how good a teacher is and stuff, but that doesn't make the basic rules of mathematics any more complicated because they really aren't complicated concepts. A student should not be inherently incapable of grasping them.
    I would usually avoid things like these, but how would you know? I must say this is a massive generalization in your part and it's undoubtedly unfair. You don't say a student 'should' understand it just because they are students. All human beings have different capabilities and to say that everyone could actually pull it off is to me, extremely narrow minded and pretentious.

    Sure you can combine them in ever more complicated ways, but they are all rooted in simple rules that you just have to practice until you can apply them automatically without even having to think about it, and the more problems you do, the more you become able to spot all the subtleties in problems that might otherwise trip you up.
    I definitely think anyone is capable of taking the baby steps that lead to the higher end stuff, it's about building confidence as much as anything.
    Sorry, but the more I read this, the more I think this is heading to the pretentious, obnoxious and superficial zone where everything can be done and should be done because of someone's optimism and ideals.

    I admire your optimism and rather strong opinion that things could be done. Maybe because I used to be like that as well, but as time goes on, I think these kinds of things are highly subjective.

    I would like to add I'm not in anyway asking you to stop thinking like you do. In fact, the world can actually benefit from people like you, but at the same time, I would argue that one should be careful not to enforce one's ideal to whomever they please.
 
 
 
Poll
Have you ever experienced bullying?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.