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The Concept of Nothing watch

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    (Original post by User722716)
    I don't know if there's a forum for this sort of stuff. Is there a cannabis forum perhaps?

    It's simple - "outside the universe" just doesn't mean anything. It's like pondering whether colourless green ideas sleep furiously or not, just because you've put a bunch of words together in a grammatically correct order doesn't mean the result is meaningful.
    I like this comment.
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    (Original post by diving_queen)
    Its only meaningless because you and others don't or won't understand it. It is entirely meaningful if you really think about it.

    Your statements simply prove that we as a species cannot understand 'nothing' because we have to have 'something'

    Ok rather than using the word 'nothing' as you rightly said it isn't really an entity let's use the word 'wibble'. 'Wibble' lies outside of our minds. The universe (I believe) is expanding into wibble. Therefore what is wibble?

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    Rowan Atkinson. I love you.
    well surely by giving it a name, whether it be 'wibble' or 'nothing' then you are making it into 'something' and therefore erasing the whole idea of 'nothing'. surely just by thinking about 'nothing' gives it presence and so makes it real to an extent as being something...
    ahh my braiiinnnnn
    but this is such a good thread!!
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    (Original post by User722716)
    I don't know if there's a forum for this sort of stuff. Is there a cannabis forum perhaps?

    It's simple - "outside the universe" just doesn't mean anything. It's like pondering whether colourless green ideas sleep furiously or not, just because you've put a bunch of words together in a grammatically correct order doesn't mean the result is meaningful.
    Outside of the universe exists. It simply has to expand into something

    So there is meaning in 'nothing'. Trying to figure it out
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    (Original post by POWCATTY)
    well surely by giving it a name, whether it be 'wibble' or 'nothing' then you are making it into 'something' and therefore erasing the whole idea of 'nothing'. surely just by thinking about 'nothing' gives it presence and so makes it real to an extent as being something...
    ahh my braiiinnnnn
    but this is such a good thread!!
    Haha I think I have come to the conclusion we can't comprehend the concept of nothing

    Our desire to name 'nothing, something is too strong!
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    (Original post by diving_queen)
    Outside of the universe exists. It simply has to expand into something

    So there is meaning in 'nothing'. Trying to figure it out
    it only means something if you want it to...i think.
    it simply has to expand into something is completely contradicting the idea of nothing. if it expands into nothing then nothing isnt something and so doesnt exist. if nothing doesnt exist then how can the universe be expanding into it unless there are boundaries to the universe and it isnt really expanding at all...what if its all just an illusion? what if the universe is doughnut shaped and expansion and contraction (right word?? coming together, or compressing or something) are happening at the same time and are completely dependant on eachother.
    im totally rambling, just saying whatever comes to my mind, so ill be glad if people agree/disagree/take any ideas further coz im not sure i completely understand what im saying, but then again i guess thats the point lol

    a neg? i thought the point of this was to discuss? i have never even thought of anything like this before, but its all very exciting so rather than neg say something!!! and then neg if you want to
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    (Original post by diving_queen)
    Outside of the universe exists.
    It's a pretty simple contradiction in terms actually, if you think about it. Hint - 'outside' and 'the universe' are both defined in terms of space.

    It simply has to expand into something
    Why?
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    (Original post by diving_queen)
    Haha I think I have come to the conclusion we can't comprehend the concept of nothing

    Our desire to name 'nothing, something is too strong!
    well, maybe thats because there is no such thing as 'nothing'. nothing isnt a physical thing, or we could comprehend it, but probably not understand it. how about other dimensions? i dont know anything about them...but im pretty sure that most humans cant understand the concept of them because its not something that we can see or physically know...so maybe 'nothing' is actually another dimension...? :eek: lol!
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    (Original post by SwingOnTheSpiral88)
    this is why I dropped philosophy like a hot potato. what good is it doing anybody to sit around pondering bull**** questions like this?
    This question doesn't just address concepts of Philosophy, but also concepts of Physics.
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    (Original post by POWCATTY)
    it only means something if you want it to...i think.
    it simply has to expand into something is completely contradicting the idea of nothing. if it expands into nothing then nothing isnt something and so doesnt exist. if nothing doesnt exist then how can the universe be expanding into it unless there are boundaries to the universe and it isnt really expanding at all...what if its all just an illusion? what if the universe is doughnut shaped and expansion and contraction (right word?? coming together, or compressing or something) are happening at the same time and are completely dependant on eachother.
    im totally rambling, just saying whatever comes to my mind, so ill be glad if people agree/disagree/take any ideas further coz im not sure i completely understand what im saying, but then again i guess thats the point lol
    Bold bit it true. For arguements and this threads sake lets make it something

    I am only using the word 'nothing' as there is no other word to describe the un-existing 'outside' of our universe.

    As for the doughnut shape, as mentioned in my OP some people believe the universe does 'come back on itself' which is what makes it infinte. But like the 'box theory' what is outside the doughnut?

    (Original post by User722716)
    It's a pretty simple contradiction in terms actually, if you think about it. Hint - 'outside' and 'the universe' are both defined in terms of space.

    Why?
    I don't think I am explaining myself very well!

    This topic is very difficult to explain. I shall make it simpler...let's look at the universe like is a growing box... I know growing boxes don't exist but its the only way to explain this. Everything we know and are attempting to understand exists in this box. Our Universe, yes, we barely know about our planet, let alone our solar system and know virtually nothing about the universe but nontheless it exists in this box.

    What I want to know is what is outside the box. The only way to describe it is nothing. Infinite nothingness.

    Why? This is just what I believe. I am all for the BB theory. Therefore logic suggests there must be something (well nothing) outside of our 'box'.

    Does that make more sense...?!
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    yes it makes sense, i also love your passion for the topic so many people seem unwilling to debate deep and 'pointless' stuff
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    (Original post by diving_queen)
    Bold bit it true. For arguements and this threads sake lets make it something

    I am only using the word 'nothing' as there is no other word to describe the un-existing 'outside' of our universe.

    As for the doughnut shape, as mentioned in my OP some people believe the universe does 'come back on itself' which is what makes it infinte. But like the 'box theory' what is outside the doughnut?



    I don't think I am explaining myself very well!

    This topic is very difficult to explain. I shall make it simpler...let's look at the universe like is a growing box... I know growing boxes don't exist but its the only way to explain this. Everything we know and are attempting to understand exists in this box. Our Universe, yes, we barely know about our planet, let alone our solar system and know virtually nothing about the universe but nontheless it exists in this box.

    What I want to know is what is outside the box. The only way to describe it is nothing. Infinite nothingness.

    Why? This is just what I believe. I am all for the BB theory. Therefore logic suggests there must be something (well nothing) outside of our 'box'.

    Does that make more sense...?!
    i have completely lost my train of thought....but....if the universe is contained in a doughnut then it doesnt interact with whats outside it (unless whats outside it is makeing it twist, so then the doughnut wouldnt be dependant on itself but on an outside existance which would indicate that nothing is something, but then outside that would there be nothing, or would that also be a doughnut...and then have another doughnut and so the universe/'nothing' is infinate which is looking like a nice easy answer right now...) so if 'nothing' is independant of the universe then either it doesnt exist if the closed universe is everything, ooorrrr its something in which the universe can sit, but that has no effect on it....maybe its just a load of dark matter/energy....or perhaps theres no nothing and simply another universe? like bubbles in a bath, each is a universe. but they would interact so not the best analogy...ohhh i dont know. if our universe was an expanding box then there needs to be something to expand it, so perhaps its not a box at all, but a flat plane which is being stretched on all sides equally...now theres a thought i havent thought of until now. other universes could be interacting with our own and we all pull eachother outwards? or it could be a ball which rather than expanding from the inside is being pulled outwards by 'forces' surrounding it. then the 'nothing' could be in the middle of our universe rather than outside it, and sort of appear as the universe is pulled outwards...i am probably not making any sense right now but i can picture it...therefore nothing would be a gap...assuming a gap formed and the universe didnt just stretch...or a void and i think im a bit lost. input please!
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    (Original post by notastampcollector)
    This question doesn't just address concepts of Philosophy, but also concepts of Physics.
    Please explain. I'm a physics postgrad and I don't see the connection. It just seems like one of these daft airy-fairy questions people just ask for the hell of it, like "does existence exist" or "what's the meaning of life" or whatever.
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    (Original post by POWCATTY)

    1) if the universe is contained in a doughnut then it doesnt interact with whats outside it (unless whats outside it is makeing it twist, so then the doughnut wouldnt be dependant on itself but on an outside existance which would indicate that nothing is something, but then outside that would there be nothing, or would that also be a doughnut...and then have another doughnut and so the universe/'nothing' is infinate which is looking like a nice easy answer right now...) so if 'nothing' is independant of the universe then either it doesnt exist if the closed universe is everything,
    I think I get what you mean. But what I personally think that the 'universe's theoretical doughnut' is the same as a doughtnut on our world. Hover a doughnut on earth and there is still 'space around it'. It just so happens we have a name for that. Oxygen, metal, wood etc etc

    So the Universe doughnut must have 'something' around it. But interpret 'something' as 'nothing'. Haha brain starting to hurt!

    2) if our universe was an expanding box then there needs to be something to expand it, so perhaps its not a box at all, but a flat plane which is being stretched on all sides equally...
    Flat plane..interesting. But what lies outside the plane, above it, underneath it, around it? What is it expanding into?

    3) other universes could be interacting with our own and we all pull eachother outwards? or it could be a ball which rather than expanding from the inside is being pulled outwards by 'forces' surrounding it. then the 'nothing' could be in the middle of our universe rather than outside it, and sort of appear as the universe is pulled outwards...
    Interesting...nice idea! Nothing is now beginning to exist, whether it be inside or outside

    4)therefore nothing would be a gap...assuming a gap formed and the universe didnt just stretch...or a void
    So your're now interpreting 'nothing' as a gap. Therefore you believe and are starting to comprehend 'nothing'

    Do you now accept the concept of 'nothing'?
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    (Original post by SwingOnTheSpiral88)
    Please explain. I'm a physics postgrad and I don't see the connection. It just seems like one of these daft airy-fairy questions people just ask for the hell of it, like "does existence exist" or "what's the meaning of life" or whatever.
    well surely this question is exactly what physicists are trying to figure out? but rather than use maths (coz we dont know any lol) youve just got to think 'outside of the box' - get it might the answer to what is outside the universe answer everything? then again, it could answer nothing but the question however i doubt that.
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    (Original post by SwingOnTheSpiral88)
    Please explain. I'm a physics postgrad and I don't see the connection. It just seems like one of these daft airy-fairy questions people just ask for the hell of it, like "does existence exist" or "what's the meaning of life" or whatever.
    I will first admit my level of physics doesn't go beyond AS and I did very poorly.

    The concept of 'nothing' will of course baffle a man of physics. Scientists have to have an explanation for everything. 'Nothing' doesnt exist. Literally because its 'nothing'. The second we quantify nothing is becomes something. The point of this whole thread! We as a species can simply not understand the possibility of 'nothing' because we must name it.

    As a physics post grad what do you believe lies past the 'edge of our universe?'. How can you explain the 'space' its growing into?
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    would it be fair to say physics is full of inconsistencies?
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    (Original post by diving_queen)
    Outside of the universe exists. It simply has to expand into something

    So there is meaning in 'nothing'. Trying to figure it out
    As I recall, when talking about expansion, don't think of it like a ball getting bigger, rather more like a balloon which as being inflated. There is already a given space for the balloon however it is kind of 'folded' if you get what I mean. So when it is expanding, its more that its 'filling' itself as opposed to filling something outside of itself. Not a physics expert so don't ask me how that works though
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    (Original post by Facticity)
    As I recall, when talking about expansion, don't think of it like a ball getting bigger, rather more like a balloon which as being inflated. There is already a given space for the balloon however it is kind of 'folded' if you get what I mean. So when it is expanding, its more that its 'filling' itself as opposed to filling something outside of itself. Not a physics expert so don't ask me how that works though
    That is super interesting! Thank you (But whats outside of the 'ball space' )
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    lol ok

    (Original post by diving_queen)
    I think I get what you mean. But what I personally think that the 'universe's theoretical doughnut' is the same as a doughtnut on our world. Hover a doughnut on earth and there is still 'space around it'. It just so happens we have a name for that. Oxygen, metal, wood etc etc

    so then if its a doughnut it must be in something because we are comparing it to our physical world. what if its something that is not in our world, therefore we cant comprehend it? if there is no 'nothing' in our universe, can we comprehend it? full circle to the beginning, but with a big headache and a little bit of a change lol. right so nothing can exist outside our universe because it doesnt exist inside our universe?

    So the Universe doughnut must have 'something' around it. But interpret 'something' as 'nothing'. Haha brain starting to hurt!

    im assuming that the whole wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff (spce-time continuum or whatever) is only in the universe, so if time doesnt exist outside of the universe then nothing really is nothing because surely everything that there is in our universe only exists because of time? if there was no time then there would be no big bang...buuttt then what was before the universe? i might just jump ship...

    Flat plane..interesting. But what lies outside the plane, above it, underneath it, around it? What is it expanding into?

    i was thinking other universes maybe...i dont know hardly anything about space-time stuff, maybe the physics degree person can help with that? but if we have one for our universe, and another universe has their own then it would be 'out of sync' with ours and so wouldnt exist to us and would be represented by 'nothing' which if 'nothing' is just the gap left by something which we can see/experience...sort of like if you had a box that was invisible and undetectable, then you could look for it because it would make a 'space' in the air where there will be no particles of air or anything. you would need a device to 'see' the air particles in order to observe this 'nothing' which is 'something'....do you get me? sort of like a negative of a photo, but not. im not sure if im going anywhere with this...i might come back to it later lol

    Interesting...nice idea! Nothing is now beginning to exist, whether it be inside or outside

    so if theres a void in the middle of our universe, edges of our universe would have to exist for there to be 'nothing' in the middle of it. 'nothing' (or 'something') all depends on whether or not our universe has edges. what if our universe doenst end? if there are no edges then 'nothing' doesnt exist, so if it doesnt exist can it still be comprehended? if something doesnt exist can you comprehend the concept of it, truely? obviously there are many theories about stuff ie string theory, infinite universes...but if only one is true, then obviously the others didnt understand it properly so came to the wrong conclusion and believed in something that doesnt exist. anyway, that was a ramble

    So your're now interpreting 'nothing' as a gap. Therefore you believe and are starting to comprehend 'nothing'

    nothing as a gap...i dont think its really comprehedning it because if 'nothing' is truely 'nothing' then it doesnt exist so there will either not be a gap, or there will be a gap with 'something' in it which isnt 'nothing'. i think ive already said that though?

    Do you now accept the concept of 'nothing'?
    ggoooddd im so tired!!! im going to do to bed a sleep on it (if i can sleep with all these thoughts wizzing about up there) and come and talk again tomorrow. lol youll probably get right fed up with me, but this is so much fun! night
    ohh and ive added all my comments inside your 'quote'...damn thats how tired i am, sorry!
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    (Original post by diving_queen)
    That is super interesting! Thank you (But whats outside of the 'ball space' )
    It doesn't make sense to talk about whats outside. The universe is essentially everything. If the multiverse theory is true, then we are parallel to universes but are intimately joined. So I guess other universes or nothing. You can't get out of the universe so it makes no sense to talk about outside. As far as I know That was a bit of physics and philosophy there!
 
 
 
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