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    (Original post by JLB)
    You say this knowing that practically nothing taken for granted in the fitness world has been conclusively proven. Indeed, this very theory is impossible to prove - you can't test it without changing different variables - to make people spend different amounts of time in the gym, they either need to do different workouts, or have different rest periods....

    For example, the benefits of sleep on training has never been conclusively proven, but the argument for it having benefits is sufficiently strong that it's accepted to be true. No one has the motivation to spend the money on the type of research needed to prove these facts, and anyone who does is selling something, so the research is most likely skewed.

    Interestingly, there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the optimum rest period between sets is 60- 90 seconds, so it's not a laughable suggestion. As for the warm up, you'll notice in my initial post I said 45 minutes weight lifting, so the warm up is not incorporated in this - until you hit the weights, you don't need to worry about the cortisol + testosterone.

    The effects of these changes can be managed, but not eliminated - therefore unless you have a very good reason to be lifting for more than 45 minutes, I fail to see the point.
    I'd point to the thousands of cases of people training for much more than 45mins at a time making just fine progress. This goes for average Joes, amateur athletes, weekend warriors and full time professional athletes. I wonder what response you'd get if you told an Olympic level weightlifter not to train for more than 45mins at a time.

    Optimum rest for what? Hypertrophy? Maybe. For strength? *******s.

    So you don't do any warm up sets :confused: You immediately start and finish with your 5rm?
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    (Original post by I am 12)
    stop crying about it you fecking girl
    Frickin rudeness of some people is unbelievable Did I kill your mother or something??
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    (Original post by rlw31)
    I'd point to the thousands of cases of people training for much more than 45mins at a time making just fine progress. This goes for average Joes, amateur athletes, weekend warriors and full time professional athletes. I wonder what response you'd get if you told an Olympic level weightlifter not to train for more than 45mins at a time.

    Optimum rest for what? Hypertrophy? Maybe. For strength? *******s.

    So you don't do any warm up sets :confused: You immediately start and finish with your 5rm?
    First up, can I point out that just because lots of people do something doesn't mean it's right (not even going to bother mentioning examples...). Following olympic weightlifter's methods probably isn't much help either - there are people who have, in addition to training very hard, exceptional genetics, so trying to copy them isn't all that helpful for us regular people.

    And yes, for hypertrophy. You'll notice that I allowed for 15 working sets - in a strength training regime, there are typically far less, so the time spent in the gym is comparable - for example, the original starting strength regime only has 7 working sets. Since it's hypertrophy, it's actually 12 rm, but yes.
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    (Original post by JLB)
    First up, can I point out that just because lots of people do something doesn't mean it's right (not even going to bother mentioning examples...). Following olympic weightlifter's methods probably isn't much help either - there are people who have, in addition to training very hard, exceptional genetics, so trying to copy them isn't all that helpful for us regular people.

    And yes, for hypertrophy. You'll notice that I allowed for 15 working sets - in a strength training regime, there are typically far less, so the time spent in the gym is comparable - for example, the original starting strength regime only has 7 working sets. Since it's hypertrophy, it's actually 12 rm, but yes.
    So you're still yet to show any evidence that the "diminishing returns" make working out for more than 45mins at a time pointless. You ignore even everyday people doing just fine whilst regularly spending more than 45mins working out. You've said nothing that will convince anyone that working out for more than 45mins is a bad idea.

    Have you ever read starting strength?

    Workout A:
    Squat: 3 sets of 5
    Bench Press: 3 sets of 5
    Deadlift: 1 set of 5

    That's 7 sets on workout A not including warm ups.

    Workout B:
    Squat: 3 sets of 5
    Press: 3 sets of 5
    Power Clean: 5 sets of 4

    That's 12, not including warm ups.

    7 sets one day and 12 another before even thinking about warm up sets and adequate rest will take more than 45mins when lifting your 5rm.
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    It'll go. I don't tend to get DOMS but my 1st session back in the gym after 2 weeks holiday I was sore as **** for the best part of a week. Back to normal after 2nd session
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    (Original post by rlw31)
    So you're still yet to show any evidence that the "diminishing returns" make working out for more than 45mins at a time pointless. You ignore even everyday people doing just fine whilst regularly spending more than 45mins working out. You've said nothing that will convince anyone that working out for more than 45mins is a bad idea.

    Have you ever read starting strength?

    Workout A:
    Squat: 3 sets of 5
    Bench Press: 3 sets of 5
    Deadlift: 1 set of 5

    That's 7 sets on workout A not including warm ups.

    Workout B:
    Squat: 3 sets of 5
    Press: 3 sets of 5
    Power Clean: 5 sets of 4

    That's 12, not including warm ups.

    7 sets one day and 12 another before even thinking about warm up sets and adequate rest will take more than 45mins when lifting your 5rm.
    I thought I'd already made it pretty clear that it's a pretty hard argument to conclusively prove, and that there is very little scientific evidence for a lot of bodybuilding "fact", simply because there are a lot of variables, and the money isn't there. However, there is a lot of evidence that testosterone levels fall and cortisol levels rise after 45 minutes or so, and since testosterone plays a huge role in muscle growth, and cortisol plays a huge role in the break down of muscle, so if you genuinely believe that this will not act in some way to inhibit muscular development, then...

    As I mentioned earlier, the fact that lots of people do something does not make it the best thing to be doing. If you go to the gym several times a week, you'll probably see results, regardless of whether you do 20 minute sessions or 2 hour sessions. The fact that you see results does not mean that you're getting the best results.

    I haven't read the Starting Strength book if that's what you mean, but I am familiar with the workouts. Allowing 3 minutes rest, workout A requires 18 minutes of rest, and the sets generally require around 45 seconds (so under 5 minutes for the sets). If you need 22 minutes warm up for 23 minutes of heavy lifting, something's wrong.
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    (Original post by JLB)
    I thought I'd already made it pretty clear that it's a pretty hard argument to conclusively prove, and that there is very little scientific evidence for a lot of bodybuilding "fact", simply because there are a lot of variables, and the money isn't there. However, there is a lot of evidence that testosterone levels fall and cortisol levels rise after 45 minutes or so, and since testosterone plays a huge role in muscle growth, and cortisol plays a huge role in the break down of muscle, so if you genuinely believe that this will not act in some way to inhibit muscular development, then...

    As I mentioned earlier, the fact that lots of people do something does not make it the best thing to be doing. If you go to the gym several times a week, you'll probably see results, regardless of whether you do 20 minute sessions or 2 hour sessions. The fact that you see results does not mean that you're getting the best results.

    I haven't read the Starting Strength book if that's what you mean, but I am familiar with the workouts. Allowing 3 minutes rest, workout A requires 18 minutes of rest, and the sets generally require around 45 seconds (so under 5 minutes for the sets). If you need 22 minutes warm up for 23 minutes of heavy lifting, something's wrong.
    So you neither have any sort of studies, not even crappy observational ones nor any anecdotal evidence but I should believe you?

    For the umpteenth time, cortisol release can be inhibited through diet, control of stress levels, sleep etc and its effects can be inhibited post exercise through proper nutrition.

    You've yet to provide even one example where a person gets as good or better gains by sticking to 45mins workouts as opposed to longer ones, yet you criticise me for pointing to tonnes of people getting good results?

    Why should we allow just 3 minutes of rest? Is that supposed to be some sort of magic number?
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    get lots of rest, been there and down that
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    (Original post by JLB)
    Wow wtf? Do some research into testosterone + cortisol levels during workout, then come back to me...
    No-one gives a damn about "research". What matters is what's proven via experience. Find me some elite level powerlifters, weightlifters, strongmen or bodybuilders that keep their workouts to 45 minutes.
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    doms feels gooood.
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    (Original post by rlw31)
    So you neither have any sort of studies, not even crappy observational ones nor any anecdotal evidence but I should believe you?

    For the umpteenth time, cortisol release can be inhibited through diet, control of stress levels, sleep etc and its effects can be inhibited post exercise through proper nutrition.

    You've yet to provide even one example where a person gets as good or better gains by sticking to 45mins workouts as opposed to longer ones, yet you criticise me for pointing to tonnes of people getting good results?

    Why should we allow just 3 minutes of rest? Is that supposed to be some sort of magic number?
    Wow, silly me... thinking I could argue without studies when you have the thousands of average joes out there... I think you'll find that most people will train for around 45 minutes, maybe one hour tops. Anyway, here's part of a study if you'd like. Comes from this:

    Peters EM, Anderson R. Theron AJ. Attenuation of increase in circulating cortisol and enhancement of the acute phase protein response in vitamin C-supplemented ultramarathoners. Int. J Sports Med 2001 Feb;22(2):120-6

    "However, there is another hormone closely associated with bodybuilding. This hormone is cortisol, a steroid hormone, and is probably the most underrated of the four bodybuilding hormones overviewed in this article. Cortisol is termed catabolic as it has the opposite effect to testosterone, insulin and growth hormone in that it breaks down tissue.

    In fact cortisol, which is released by the adrenal glands under conditions of high mental and physical stress and high temperature, is the body's primary catabolic hormone. The three main functions of cortisol are:


    The reduction of protein synthesis.

    The facilitation of protein to glucose.

    The halting of tissue growth.
    It is therefore essential that cortisol release is controlled if one is to facilitate muscle growth. As well as being released under conditions of stress and high temperature cortisol is also released first thing in the morning. Morning aerobics have been thought to be effective for this very reason.

    However this is misguided thinking because exercising on an empty stomach first thing in the morning has been shown to actually intensify cortisol's effects thus resulting in further muscle loss, and consequently metabolic resistance to body fat loss.

    There is not a lot a bodybuilder can do in terms of completely restricting cortisol release as, although cortisol can be problematic for bodybuilders, it is an important hormone nevertheless. The vital functions that cortisol govern are the regulation of inflammatory responses in the body and the balancing of blood sugar in times of stress.

    It is excess cortisol that is the problem for bodybuilders not cortisol per se. The dangers of excess cortisol are:


    Reduced growth hormone, and testosterone output.

    Osteoporosis.

    Reduced muscle and increased abdominal fat.

    Impaired memory and learning.

    Reduced glucose utilization.

    Impaired immunity.

    Controlling Cortisol Release


    Although cortisol release cannot be prevented, it can, and should, be controlled. Controlling the release of cortisol can be achieved by employing the following methods:


    Exercise (aerobically and with weights): This may seem like a paradox but correct exercise, although it increases stress, will negate the effects of cortisol in the long term. The key is to not overtrain and to do just enough to adequately stimulate the particular system being training (muscular or aerobic). Aerobic sessions should be kept at between 30 and 45 minutes and weight sessions should be no longer than 45 minutes. The endorphin release from these two types of exercise should offset any release in cortisol."

    *****

    "The duration, intensity and frequency of exercise will determine the circulating levels of testosterone. Testosterone levels increase most with short intense bursts, while it decreases with prolonged activity especially that of frequent endurance training. During endurance training, testosterone is needed to maintain muscle but frequent extended training doesn’t allow for repair and recovery of testosterone and tissue damage occurs.

    Studies show that testosterone levels will elevate with exercise for about 45 to 60 minutes. After this time period, cortisol levels begin to increase and testosterone levels will decline. This decrease has been detected for up to 6 days.

    Because you require testosterone for repair and growth, do not train for more than 45 to 60 minutes at a single session. If you feel like you want to exercise or train more, split sessions are recommended. Also do not lift weights and perform aerobic training at the same time. It is also a good idea to vary your workouts and cycle them throughout the year."

    *****







    "Here you see human growth hormone take a surge within the work out.

    You also see testosterone spike at about the 35 to 45-minute mark.

    After that both hormones start to subside and cortisol starts to surge.

    When you hear the now popular idea that a short intense workout is the best, this is why. After the 45-minute mark you are not getting any more hormonal response.


    Diminishing Return
    Between the 45 to 60-minute mark, there is no gain for the work you do. Exercising after this point will start to break your muscle down because cortisol will surge. The nervous system takes this intense stress as a warning signal and will make cortisol immediately dominant.

    When cortisol surges it suppresses the anabolic hormones testosterone and growth hormone.

    The length of the workout to enhance hormonal restoration means keeping it under 45 minutes.

    The basic rule is - the more time our body has high levels of anabolic hormones and lower catabolic hormones the better. Over any given period of time we want the cumulative effect to be more time spent in an anabolic state."

    *****

    "According the University of New Mexico’s Len Kravitz the critical level that results in excess cortisol secretion occurs after about 45 minutes of exercise--some people hit the critical level earlier, others later depending on variety of genetic and other variables.

    Two of the effects of excess cortisol are fat retention, it makes your body want to hold on to fat instead of burn it, and muscle catabolism, it makes you body use skeletal muscle for energy.

    The muscle catabolism is most pernicious effect of cortisol for people trying to lose fat.

    First, cardiovascular activity is very efficient at chewing up muscle tissue, the steps are as follows:

    1. Conversion from fast twitch muscle fiber to slow twitch muscle fiber, by acquiring mitochondria and relinquishing contractile protein. Smaller fiber, less RMR.

    2. Excessive Cortisol released in response to the damage to the fiber as a result of the exercise. Cortisol acts as a natural analgesic, but severely hampers protein synthesis and muscle repair.

    3 . It has been shown, that high volume cardiovascular exercise can completely deplete satellite cells in muscle fiber, which means no new fiber can grow or existing fiber be repaired.

    4 . Growth Hormone levels decline with high volume cardiovascular exercise, which also hampers the repair process. Low growth hormone also accelerates aging.

    5. To sum it up, you can’t train all day, and you can’t eat no food, but you can always build a bit more muscle, so quit the cardio and concentrate on the weight lifting."

    *****

    "First, after about 40-45 minutes of any type of exercise — and especially intense weight training — so much cortisol has entered the bloodstream that a shutdown of eicosonoid production will begin. Eicosonoids are autocrine hormones (such as prostagladins) that control all function at a cellular level — i.e., inflammation, vasodilation/constriction, heart rate, body temperature, immune function, etc. In this case, cortisol secretion is a response to stress. As eicosonoid production stops, the body is temporarily allowed relief from pain, which it is sensing from too much from intense exercise. For example, a shutdown of PGE1 and PGE2 (pro-inflammatory/anti-inflammatory) prostagladins would commence. Since pain in this case is relative to some type of inflammation this would allow the body to cope in the short term.

    If this persisted, however, all eicosonoids would shut down and the body's function would come to a screeching halt. This is the same dilemma that doctors face when giving people corticosteroids. At first, all symptoms magically disappear; however, within a few days T-cells begin to plummet and heart irregularities and other key physiological dysfunctions begin to appear. This is because the autocrine hormone eicosonoids are being shut down at the cellular level.

    Because of their power, these hormones also vanish in seconds. They are, however, the primary activators and modulators of all body functions and, once they shut down, other hormonal systems (endocrine and paracrine) are sure to follow. Small amounts of cortisol are not so dangerous, because once dissipated, the eicosonoid production returns to normal. As you might surmise, being in the gym 2-3 hours every day is an effective way of increasing to a potentially counterproductive — and even dangerous — level in the body.

    Secondly, during moderate exercise like walking, insulin levels diminish and blood glucose levels arise in response to the exercise-related increase in glucagon (the pancreas releases glucagon to balance blood glucose levels). This primarily glucose restoration mechanism works smoothly as long as exercise is maintained at a moderate level. But if the intensity increases, cortisol is released to stabilize blood sugar and insulin levels. More cortisol, more problems.

    Third, the more intensely you exercise, the more ATP you must produce in the mitochondria for energy. The more ATP you produce, the more free radicals you make, and a certain percentage of those free radicals slip by the energy production phase. Once "loose" in the body, these unpaired electrons search out other electrons to latch onto and oxidize. These excess free radicals search out essential fatty acids (because of their high-polyunsaturation), DNA (which they can damage), protein, fats and a host of important vitamins that we call antioxidants. Making too many free radicals is almost assuredly a passport to aging because they can potentially damage so many essential nutrients and biologically necessary compounds. Too much exercise, along with eating too many calories, is the most effective way of making excessive amount of free radicals."

    *****

    "It actually does the body more harm than good, to work out for long periods of time. When you exercise more than 45 minutes, the body begins to produce increased amounts of cortisol, which triggers muscle breakdown.
    ■Cortisol is able to overpower just about all other hormones in the body.
    ■Cortisol can cause accumulation of body fat even if you think you are doing all the right things correctly.
    ■Cortisol will block HGH from doing its job.

    High levels of cortisol are known to be the cause of:
    ■Decreased bone density.
    ■Increased blood pressure.
    ■Inhibition of the immune system.
    ■Muscle wasting.
    ■Insulin resistance.
    ■Increased body fat levels.

    When exercise is combined with an improper diet:
    ■Blood sugar fluctuations can elevate cortisol.
    ■Excessive carbohydrates can elevate cortisol.
    ■Protein deficiency can elevate cortisol.
    ■Eating too little can cause cortisol to rise.
    ■During times of stress, cortisol is elevated.

    Since you're so fond of studies - how about a study showing how cortisol release can be inhibited by the factors you've discussed. It can be reduced, no question, but not stopped, and as the study shows, the issue is pretty big, even when diet, stress, sleep etc. is in order. You're also ignoring the point about falling testosterone...
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    (Original post by JLB)
    Wow, silly me... thinking I could argue without studies when you have the thousands of average joes out there... I think you'll find that most people will train for around 45 minutes, maybe one hour tops. Anyway, here's part of a study if you'd like. Comes from this:

    Peters EM, Anderson R. Theron AJ. Attenuation of increase in circulating cortisol and enhancement of the acute phase protein response in vitamin C-supplemented ultramarathoners. Int. J Sports Med 2001 Feb;22(2):120-6

    "However, there is another hormone closely associated with bodybuilding. This hormone is cortisol, a steroid hormone, and is probably the most underrated of the four bodybuilding hormones overviewed in this article. Cortisol is termed catabolic as it has the opposite effect to testosterone, insulin and growth hormone in that it breaks down tissue.

    In fact cortisol, which is released by the adrenal glands under conditions of high mental and physical stress and high temperature, is the body's primary catabolic hormone. The three main functions of cortisol are:


    The reduction of protein synthesis.

    The facilitation of protein to glucose.

    The halting of tissue growth.
    It is therefore essential that cortisol release is controlled if one is to facilitate muscle growth. As well as being released under conditions of stress and high temperature cortisol is also released first thing in the morning. Morning aerobics have been thought to be effective for this very reason.

    However this is misguided thinking because exercising on an empty stomach first thing in the morning has been shown to actually intensify cortisol's effects thus resulting in further muscle loss, and consequently metabolic resistance to body fat loss.

    There is not a lot a bodybuilder can do in terms of completely restricting cortisol release as, although cortisol can be problematic for bodybuilders, it is an important hormone nevertheless. The vital functions that cortisol govern are the regulation of inflammatory responses in the body and the balancing of blood sugar in times of stress.


    It is excess cortisol that is the problem for bodybuilders not cortisol per se. The dangers of excess cortisol are:


    Reduced growth hormone, and testosterone output.

    Osteoporosis.

    Reduced muscle and increased abdominal fat.

    Impaired memory and learning.

    Reduced glucose utilization.

    Impaired immunity.

    Controlling Cortisol Release


    Although cortisol release cannot be prevented, it can, and should, be controlled. Controlling the release of cortisol can be achieved by employing the following methods:


    Exercise (aerobically and with weights): This may seem like a paradox but correct exercise, although it increases stress, will negate the effects of cortisol in the long term. The key is to not overtrain and to do just enough to adequately stimulate the particular system being training (muscular or aerobic). Aerobic sessions should be kept at between 30 and 45 minutes and weight sessions should be no longer than 45 minutes. The endorphin release from these two types of exercise should offset any release in cortisol."


    *****

    "The duration, intensity and frequency of exercise will determine the circulating levels of testosterone. Testosterone levels increase most with short intense bursts, while it decreases with prolonged activity especially that of frequent endurance training. During endurance training, testosterone is needed to maintain muscle but frequent extended training doesn’t allow for repair and recovery of testosterone and tissue damage occurs.

    Studies show that testosterone levels will elevate with exercise for about 45 to 60 minutes. After this time period, cortisol levels begin to increase and testosterone levels will decline. This decrease has been detected for up to 6 days.

    Because you require testosterone for repair and growth, do not train for more than 45 to 60 minutes at a single session. If you feel like you want to exercise or train more, split sessions are recommended. Also do not lift weights and perform aerobic training at the same time. It is also a good idea to vary your workouts and cycle them throughout the year."

    *****







    "Here you see human growth hormone take a surge within the work out.

    You also see testosterone spike at about the 35 to 45-minute mark.

    After that both hormones start to subside and cortisol starts to surge.

    When you hear the now popular idea that a short intense workout is the best, this is why. After the 45-minute mark you are not getting any more hormonal response.


    Diminishing Return
    Between the 45 to 60-minute mark, there is no gain for the work you do. Exercising after this point will start to break your muscle down because cortisol will surge. The nervous system takes this intense stress as a warning signal and will make cortisol immediately dominant.

    When cortisol surges it suppresses the anabolic hormones testosterone and growth hormone.

    The length of the workout to enhance hormonal restoration means keeping it under 45 minutes.

    The basic rule is - the more time our body has high levels of anabolic hormones and lower catabolic hormones the better. Over any given period of time we want the cumulative effect to be more time spent in an anabolic state."

    *****

    "According the University of New Mexico’s Len Kravitz the critical level that results in excess cortisol secretion occurs after about 45 minutes of exercise--some people hit the critical level earlier, others later depending on variety of genetic and other variables.

    Two of the effects of excess cortisol are fat retention, it makes your body want to hold on to fat instead of burn it, and muscle catabolism, it makes you body use skeletal muscle for energy.

    The muscle catabolism is most pernicious effect of cortisol for people trying to lose fat.

    First, cardiovascular activity is very efficient at chewing up muscle tissue, the steps are as follows:

    1. Conversion from fast twitch muscle fiber to slow twitch muscle fiber, by acquiring mitochondria and relinquishing contractile protein. Smaller fiber, less RMR.

    2. Excessive Cortisol released in response to the damage to the fiber as a result of the exercise. Cortisol acts as a natural analgesic, but severely hampers protein synthesis and muscle repair.

    3 . It has been shown, that high volume cardiovascular exercise can completely deplete satellite cells in muscle fiber, which means no new fiber can grow or existing fiber be repaired.

    4 . Growth Hormone levels decline with high volume cardiovascular exercise, which also hampers the repair process. Low growth hormone also accelerates aging.

    5. To sum it up, you can’t train all day, and you can’t eat no food, but you can always build a bit more muscle, so quit the cardio and concentrate on the weight lifting."

    *****

    "First, after about 40-45 minutes of any type of exercise — and especially intense weight training — so much cortisol has entered the bloodstream that a shutdown of eicosonoid production will begin. Eicosonoids are autocrine hormones (such as prostagladins) that control all function at a cellular level — i.e., inflammation, vasodilation/constriction, heart rate, body temperature, immune function, etc. In this case, cortisol secretion is a response to stress. As eicosonoid production stops, the body is temporarily allowed relief from pain, which it is sensing from too much from intense exercise. For example, a shutdown of PGE1 and PGE2 (pro-inflammatory/anti-inflammatory) prostagladins would commence. Since pain in this case is relative to some type of inflammation this would allow the body to cope in the short term.

    If this persisted, however, all eicosonoids would shut down and the body's function would come to a screeching halt. This is the same dilemma that doctors face when giving people corticosteroids. At first, all symptoms magically disappear; however, within a few days T-cells begin to plummet and heart irregularities and other key physiological dysfunctions begin to appear. This is because the autocrine hormone eicosonoids are being shut down at the cellular level.

    Because of their power, these hormones also vanish in seconds. They are, however, the primary activators and modulators of all body functions and, once they shut down, other hormonal systems (endocrine and paracrine) are sure to follow. Small amounts of cortisol are not so dangerous, because once dissipated, the eicosonoid production returns to normal. As you might surmise, being in the gym 2-3 hours every day is an effective way of increasing to a potentially counterproductive — and even dangerous — level in the body.

    Secondly, during moderate exercise like walking, insulin levels diminish and blood glucose levels arise in response to the exercise-related increase in glucagon (the pancreas releases glucagon to balance blood glucose levels). This primarily glucose restoration mechanism works smoothly as long as exercise is maintained at a moderate level. But if the intensity increases, cortisol is released to stabilize blood sugar and insulin levels. More cortisol, more problems.

    Third, the more intensely you exercise, the more ATP you must produce in the mitochondria for energy. The more ATP you produce, the more free radicals you make, and a certain percentage of those free radicals slip by the energy production phase. Once "loose" in the body, these unpaired electrons search out other electrons to latch onto and oxidize. These excess free radicals search out essential fatty acids (because of their high-polyunsaturation), DNA (which they can damage), protein, fats and a host of important vitamins that we call antioxidants. Making too many free radicals is almost assuredly a passport to aging because they can potentially damage so many essential nutrients and biologically necessary compounds. Too much exercise, along with eating too many calories, is the most effective way of making excessive amount of free radicals."

    *****

    "It actually does the body more harm than good, to work out for long periods of time. When you exercise more than 45 minutes, the body begins to produce increased amounts of cortisol, which triggers muscle breakdown.
    ■Cortisol is able to overpower just about all other hormones in the body.
    ■Cortisol can cause accumulation of body fat even if you think you are doing all the right things correctly.
    ■Cortisol will block HGH from doing its job.

    High levels of cortisol are known to be the cause of:
    ■Decreased bone density.
    ■Increased blood pressure.
    ■Inhibition of the immune system.
    ■Muscle wasting.
    ■Insulin resistance.
    ■Increased body fat levels.

    When exercise is combined with an improper diet:
    ■Blood sugar fluctuations can elevate cortisol.
    ■Excessive carbohydrates can elevate cortisol.
    ■Protein deficiency can elevate cortisol.
    ■Eating too little can cause cortisol to rise.
    ■During times of stress, cortisol is elevated.

    Since you're so fond of studies - how about a study showing how cortisol release can be inhibited by the factors you've discussed. It can be reduced, no question, but not stopped, and as the study shows, the issue is pretty big, even when diet, stress, sleep etc. is in order. You're also ignoring the point about falling testosterone...
    I do love how you've taken bits and pieces from a bodybuilding.com article and dressed it up as though it all comes from the study, using bodybuilding.com tatics I see. The only part of the article that pertained to the study was the one sentence about vitamin C intake. That study was to find out the effects of Vitamin C intake on cortisol levels. It has nothing to do with lifting weights or duration of workouts, indeed the participants of the study were ultramarathoners who took part in 90km race, I bet they stuck to 45mins :rolleyes:

    Funny how in another article (which was written much later) the same author recommends spending, shock horror, more than 45mins working out. I guess he's either reckless or maybe he's changed his mind about the oh so dangerous 45min cut off.

    You were so lazy you lifted all of this info from http://www.m4carbine.net didn't you?

    The last two weren't referenced and I don't know who they were written by, so if you could be so kind as to inform me of the names of the studies and/or the person/people who wrote conducted then maybe I could comment on them
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    DOMS are normal when you exercise, a common fact is that if you don't have DOMS, you didn't train hard enough.

    Lift heavy and take a multi
 
 
 
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