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    (Original post by Zahir)
    Hardly, because even the students who are streamed into the bottom of the groups at grammar schools, are still usually above/ equivalent to those in the "higher" groups at standard state schools.
    For example at my school: "Percentage of pupils achieving A*-C in both GCSE English and mathematics is 99%", so even those in the lesser able groups still preform better than those from other schools.
    You do understand that grammars take off the top 20%, right? Thus those at the bottom of a grammar school should still be in the top 20% of pupils in the area. Consider people expect 33% 5 A*-C even in a failing school then you'd think that everyone in the top 20% would get 5 A*-C?
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    (Original post by WharfedaleTiger)
    You do understand that grammars take off the top 20%, right? Thus those at the bottom of a grammar school should still be in the top 20% of pupils in the area. Consider people expect 33% 5 A*-C even in a failing school then you'd think that everyone in the top 20% would get 5 A*-C?
    Yeah this was my point, grammars contain the top students - therefore the fact that we are streamed once again, while at a grammar school isn't pointless, because even within a grammar school there is a wide-range of ability.
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    (Original post by Zahir)
    Yeah this was my point, grammars contain the top students - therefore the fact that we are streamed once again, while at a grammar school isn't pointless, because even within a grammar school there is a wide-range of ability.
    Indeed there is.

    Unfortuntly Grammar schools themselves are pointless.
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    (Original post by WharfedaleTiger)
    So your view is basically snobbery...
    How is looking down on kids who think they're little 'badmans' snobbery? I'm sorry that I didn't enjoy my education being hindered by kids who liked to disrupt every lesson and who were forever having fights and stabbing each other and trying to steal a phone or an iPod every few minutes. Or who postponed every GCSE exam because they couldn't be bothered to stop talking.

    You try going to school in a bog-standard South London comp and tell me what you think of chavs then.
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    (Original post by najinaji)
    How is looking down on kids who think they're little 'badmans' snobbery? I'm sorry that I didn't enjoy my education being hindered by kids who liked to disrupt every lesson and who were forever having fights and stabbing each other and trying to steal a phone or an iPod every few minutes. Or who postponed every GCSE exam because they couldn't be bothered to stop talking.

    You try going to school in a bog-standard South London comp and tell me what you think of chavs then.
    Thing is that I did go to that kind of school (well, one with a similar demogaphic in the north) after I failed my 11+. And you know what? You get disruptive pupils in every school. Its the nature of kids-you get them in a grammar and you get them in a comprehensive. When I moved schools I found there where similar disruptive pupils at a grammar.

    And yes, looking down on people is generally snobbery.
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    Social mobility is doing fantastically well is the post-11+ era. So much fairer to have that sort of education provided to people purely on the basis of their parents wealth.
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    (Original post by WharfedaleTiger)
    The problem is that its not just about you or, indeed, me. The grammar school system doesn't just affect those who make it to the grammar but also the schools around them and the education of the majority who don't make it to a grammar school. Grammar Schools are great for the 20% who go to them but they ruin the education of the other 80%.
    And how exactly do they do that?
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    (Original post by Wizz09)
    And how exactly do they do that?
    By making them go to worse schools, by labeling them as failures from age 11, by giving them worse teaching them and isolating them from the 'drag up effect', by forcing them away from academic pathways and into vocational ones early on and so forth.
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    the entire German secondary system is based on how good you are, Gymnasium for grammar school kids and the Hauptschule for the weaker kids, and it works wonders for those kids
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    I dont see what the problem is with streaming ALL classes for ability in each subject, so you could be top in maths, bottom in art, middle set in english etc
    Then people would just end up getting appropriate teaching, its not as if everyone in a grammar school is brilliant at everything or everyone who goes to a comp. is a total thicko
    Plus you would end up with socially mixed schools and wouldnt get people only ever meeting people from the same background as them at school
    and to finish, when the 11+ was standard, secondary moderns were only allowed to let a certain amount of pupils take o-levels, because in some areas the sec. moderns had better results than the grammar schools. think about it, whats the difference between the most intelligent comprehensive school student and the worst grammar school pupil?
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    I go to a grammar school, and am in the top set for mathematics (as an example). I can honestly say that if I were forced to be in a class with the people in the bottom set I would become incredibly disengaged, since I would find the rate of learning far to slow. However, to get into my school, you had to pass a maths test, and most of theose people in bottom set are likely to achieve A's at GCSE. So, the value of grammar schools is that at a comprehensive pupils like they and I would both be in the same set, well as at a grammar school more able pupils are able to excel and work to the best of their abilities, without less able pupils getting left behind.
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    (Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
    I went to a selective grammar school, we were still streamed in maths, English and science.

    There's still a wide range of ability within grammar schools.
    Second this. Spent my 6th form years at a grammar school, and it burst a lot of bubbles. Grammar schools contain more clever people, but are still populated with mostly the same students as elsewhere. The problem is that their 'specialness' gives them big heads, so they feel invincible... made worse for me by its' being an all-boys school till 6th form!
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    (Original post by WharfedaleTiger)
    The grammar school system doesn't just affect those who make it to the grammar but also the schools around them and the education of the majority who don't make it to a grammar school. Grammar Schools are great for the 20% who go to them but they ruin the education of the other 80%.
    Errrrrr how does the absence of smart people ruin the education of the other 80%? Were you hoping the smart kids would teach the dumber ones? I'm pretty sure they arent paid to be teaching fellow pupils.....


    (Original post by WharfedaleTiger)
    Wonder why the local comprehensive/secondary moderns are so poor? The creaming off of the top 20% may have something to do with it.
    God aren't you an Einstein! A school full of A/B grade pupils achieves better results than a school with B/C grade pupils. I wish I was as smart as you.....

    You're nearly as stupid as Yawn who says Kent secondary moderns achieve worse grades than comprehensives...... yes that would be because comprehensives contain pupils who would have gone to a grammar and secondary moderns do not......
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    Whilst I would have loved to have gone to a grammar school, there is no denying that those at the secondary moderns would suffer greatly. This is not just because they are amongst less able pupils but because they are branded as 'thick' from age 11. This is a self fulfilling prophecy that leads them to believe that there is no way they can achieve top grades. Selecting at 13 is a much better option as children are better developed. Even then, the children who do not pass should be given a lot of support, so they can achieve their full potential, and schools should have strict discipline from day 1. It is utterly ridiculous that less able children should be left to rot in poorly funded schools in which nobody cares about their education.
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    i moved from a comp to a grammar and am surprised at how much difference there is between the two, we are pushed to the limit at my grammar school, but in my old comp no one cared about learning not even the teachers. That is just my experience, it may be different in other areas.
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    (Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
    Well to put it one way, the compos in my home town are so amazingly dire that my mum would actually have homeschooled me to avoid going there if I hadn't gotten into the local selective grammar. I also know that in my year, and even more so in the lower years, a very large proportion of the school came from more deprived backgrounds - being at a grammar school gave them the chance to move up in the world by getting a better education, and without the environment of a grammar school with all it's history (founded before the civil war dontchaknow) and the house system, the class debates and whatnot, I firmly believe that most people who attended my school would have done worse academically if they had attended a comprehensive school.
    Sounds more like an argument to improve the comprehensives, no?
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    (Original post by WharfedaleTiger)
    I don't believe that grammar schools are actually good for anything.
    are you joking?

    In my area they are the schools that achieve top grades gcse and A levels, and i have went to all three types of schools, private,state and grammar.
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    (Original post by najinaji)
    Believe me, when you grow up in Saaaaf London surrounded by yobbos, you pray for a grammar school (and it never comes )
    Bexley, Bromley and Sutton still have grammar schools, they are not a good thing trust me. They cripple the comprehensives and you cannot, for life of you, get into a grammar if you live outside the catchment areas for them, meaning that if you live in north bexley you are going to go to a less than average comp as most people with high ability have already been selectively streamed out of your school.
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    (Original post by 0000fw)
    Bexley, Bromley and Sutton still have grammar schools, they are not a good thing trust me. They cripple the comprehensives and you cannot, for life of you, get into a grammar if you live outside the catchment areas for them, meaning that if you live in north bexley you are going to go to a less than average comp as most people with high ability have already been selectively streamed out of your school.

    you don't get the chance to learn in state schools, because if you do well in class, there is a high chance you get bullied for it. In grammar schools however children can achieve freely in a good learning atmosphere without being bullied.

    p.s: I go to a grammar school now in sutton.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Some schools have streaming based on ability which seems to negate the nessescity
    for grammar schools.

    I never saw the point of having a separate school for people of one ability and another school for people of another.

    Streaming also means the stream you are in is based on your ability in a certain subject which is fairer than having to pass an entrance exam where you have to to pass in all the subjects even if you are strong in one subject like maths but poor at another like comprehension.
    I think grammar schools are quite popular on here. Probably because the vast majority of TSR students would have gone to a grammar school had they not been abolished in most LEAs by the late eighties. Some of course still exist, mostly in the South.

    I personally don't support the grammar school system, I think it is an unfair system with many flaws. I'm much more in favour of flexible streaming, which attempts to mimic the better aspects of the grammar school within the comprehensive school.
 
 
 
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