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What is "Matter" - and what is "Spirit"? watch

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    (Original post by mikeyd85)
    I'd say we are more a combination of matter and energy than a separate third party.

    I wouldn't say though that we can manipulate with our own will though. Not on it's own.
    How can you say you're manipulating - if you have no will? Perhaps something else or someone else is manipulating through you? Perhaps you're just a PUPPET? What is CERTAIN is that there HAS TO BE a manipulator somewhere in spontaneous processes. And it CAN'T be Matter - or energy as defined in contemporary physics. Neither of them can account for the fundamental unpredictability of quantum events, can they? And that - Spontaneity - is precisely what this issue is about, is it not?
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    (Original post by Zaki)
    How can you say you're manipulating - if you have no will? Perhaps something else or someone else is manipulating through you? Perhaps you're just a PUPPET? What is CERTAIN is that there HAS TO BE a manipulator somewhere in spontaneous processes. And it CAN'T be Matter - or energy as defined in contemporary physics. Neither of them can account for the fundamental unpredictability of quantum events, can they? And that - Spontaneity - is precisely what this issue is about, is it not?
    I'm not saying people don't have free will, just that they are a combination of different energies and matters. People can manipulate anything they like, but it is still no more than a gust of wind blowing leaves down a road - the result of an energy acting upon a matter.
    The nature of particle physics means that we don't need anything to account for the actions of quantum events. They are what they are because they are. All very weak anthropic principle, which is something I'm not mad keen on, but it's what I accept as truth as best as humans know.
    I think it's very dangerous to try compare the spontaneity of people and sub atomic particles though. They're of a very different nature.
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    (Original post by mikeyd85)
    I'm not saying people don't have free will, just that they are a combination of different energies and matters. People can manipulate anything they like, but it is still no more than a gust of wind blowing leaves down a road - the result of an energy acting upon a matter.
    The nature of particle physics means that we don't need anything to account for the actions of quantum events. They are what they are because they are. All very weak anthropic principle, which is something I'm not mad keen on, but it's what I accept as truth as best as humans know.
    I think it's very dangerous to try compare the spontaneity of people and sub atomic particles though. They're of a very different nature.
    No. Spontaneity CANNOT be a product of ANYTHING if it is to be genuine. A product CANNOT be truly INDEPENDENT! And CANNOT be said to be the INITIATOR of ANYTHING! It can merely RESPOND. That is the nature of INERT Matter - NOT Spontaneity.

    And the claim that ANYTHING can JUST HAPPEN - FOR NO REASON - is the very antithesis of science and logic! With respect, it's nonsense - and just opens the way to absurdity and MAGIC! That way leads to lunacy.
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    Unfortunately, I can't make SENSE of your THREAD.
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    (Original post by ironandwine)
    Unfortunately, I can't make SENSE of your THREAD.

    Goodbye then. Those who have eyes, let them see.
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    (Original post by Zaki)
    No. Spontaneity CANNOT be a product of ANYTHING if it is to be genuine. A product CANNOT be truly INDEPENDENT! And CANNOT be said to be the INITIATOR of ANYTHING! It can merely RESPOND. That is the nature of INERT Matter - NOT Spontaneity.

    And the claim that ANYTHING can JUST HAPPEN - FOR NO REASON - is the very antithesis of science and logic! With respect, it's nonsense - and just opens the way to absurdity and MAGIC! That way leads to lunacy.
    So basically are you saying that matter is "passive", while random events and human decision and free will are "active"? And hence there needs to be something behind it being "active"?

    Is this your argument? (I'm trying to understand your point of view better because you're quite confusing)
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    (Original post by Zaki)
    No. Spontaneity CANNOT be a product of ANYTHING if it is to be genuine. A product CANNOT be truly INDEPENDENT! And CANNOT be said to be the INITIATOR of ANYTHING! It can merely RESPOND. That is the nature of INERT Matter - NOT Spontaneity.

    And the claim that ANYTHING can JUST HAPPEN - FOR NO REASON - is the very antithesis of science and logic! With respect, it's nonsense - and just opens the way to absurdity and MAGIC! That way leads to lunacy.
    I think I'm looking at this with a very straight forward view of science and physics whereas you're looking at this from a spiritual point of view. I've had similar conversations before and ultimately, they get nowhere. So on that note, I'm out.
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    (Original post by n1r4v)
    So basically are you saying that matter is "passive", while random events and human decision and free will are "active"? And hence there needs to be something behind it being "active"?

    Is this your argument? (I'm trying to understand your point of view better because you're quite confusing)
    What I'm saying is that - as physics has noticed and documented in detail - Matter is utterly INCAPABLE of INITIATING ANYTHING. It can only respond. Spontaneity - of which human free will is but one conformation is responsible for INITIATING ALL things.

    Human free will is NOT the most powerful conformation of Will/Spontaneity - or its weakest one.
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    (Original post by mikeyd85)
    I think I'm looking at this with a very straight forward view of science and physics whereas you're looking at this from a spiritual point of view. I've had similar conversations before and ultimately, they get nowhere. So on that note, I'm out.
    Well, if you're claiming that Matter is capable of disobeying the Law of Inertia then, no, you're NOT looking at the matter/issue scientifically or logically at all!
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    (Original post by Zaki)
    Well, if you're claiming that Matter is capable of disobeying the Law of Inertia then, no, you're NOT looking at the matter scientifically or logically at all!
    What? :lolwut:
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    (Original post by mikeyd85)
    What? :lolwut:

    What I've said is clear enough. Those who have eyes, let them see.
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Can't read your threads. Stop with the random bolding/italicising/capitalising of words. It's like reading a comic book.
    Indeed.
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    (Original post by Lol_Fish)
    Indeed.
    These are the same people who think it makes sense to say that they have no Consciousness or Will - and that ANYTHING can JUST HAPPEN - FOR NO REASON - perhaps if you wait long enough. Oh brother!
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    Ignoring all previous posts..

    As far as I know. 'Matter' is physical, everything we see, hear, say, act upon, acts upon us.
    Please don't tell me 'Matter IS INERTIA' because I don't understand what you mean by this.

    I see what you mean by matter not being able to make actions, because that's usually determined by forces and other influences. Matter moves as a consequence of a force acting upon it, the mass of the particle gives it a 'moment'. This then collides with another particle, transferring some amount of this kinetic energy to the other particle, if not all (It's circumstantial) and the other particle moves.

    This 'spirit' you speak of remains popular within the religious side of culture, mainly because it cannot be detected through instruments and therefore isn't considered 'real'.. And things considered 'not real' we call imaginary, fake/ made up. Of course it would be absurd to completely deny the existence of something we don't know about, or haven't witnessed ourselves, or hasn't been proved.

    Spirit still remains a mystery to me, so far I regard it to be within biological, animated objects as opposed to inanimate objects.. (Cue 'vegetables have feelings too!' http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive...roven_pla.aspx << I died when I read this..) But as I said before, It'd be absurd to disregard a block of steel from its feelings..

    I guess you could consider 'spirit' to be consciousness? Scientists could make a computer as complex as our very own brain, complete with the ability to repair links, use programmed systems to decide whether or not to do something through calculations. But as far as 'guessing' and 'gut instinct' is concerned it's not something a bit of complex circuitry can come up with. So everything that happens in our heads in regardance to decisions that have no physical influence could be considered as 'spirit'. As goes for all living creatures.


    I feel that 'energy' could be something to be considered here, despite it not being part of the argument, it relates strongly to Matter. According to Einstein, Energy is related to Matter, E=mc^2 Meaning that the amount of energy contained within a particular mass of matter, is found my multiplying it by the speed of light squared.
    The speed if light is a substantial amount, and squaring it is even more so, meaning that the amount of energy in 1kg of matter equates to about 829 PETAJOULES of energy, that's 829 with 15 zeros... It's easy to see how nuclear weapons can be so destructive with such a small amount of fuel..

    But moving away from the science, energy cannot be created or destroyed, it is just there all the time, converted from one form to another. I guess that by going along with the idea of a spirit, they are quite similar. It exists unconditionally. Could you consider 'Spirit' to be a form of 'Energy'?
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    (Original post by Ruthless Dutchman)
    Ignoring all previous posts..

    As far as I know. 'Matter' is physical, everything we see, hear, say, act upon, acts upon us.
    Please don't tell me 'Matter IS INERTIA' because I don't understand what you mean by this.

    I see what you mean by matter not being able to make actions, because that's usually determined by forces and other influences. Matter moves as a consequence of a force acting upon it, the mass of the particle gives it a 'moment'. This then collides with another particle, transferring some amount of this kinetic energy to the other particle, if not all (It's circumstantial) and the other particle moves.

    This 'spirit' you speak of remains popular within the religious side of culture, mainly because it cannot be detected through instruments and therefore isn't considered 'real'.. And things considered 'not real' we call imaginary, fake/ made up. Of course it would be absurd to completely deny the existence of something we don't know about, or haven't witnessed ourselves, or hasn't been proved.

    Spirit still remains a mystery to me, so far I regard it to be within biological, animated objects as opposed to inanimate objects.. (Cue 'vegetables have feelings too!' http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive...roven_pla.aspx << I died when I read this..) But as I said before, It'd be absurd to disregard a block of steel from its feelings..

    I guess you could consider 'spirit' to be consciousness? Scientists could make a computer as complex as our very own brain, complete with the ability to repair links, use programmed systems to decide whether or not to do something through calculations. But as far as 'guessing' and 'gut instinct' is concerned it's not something a bit of complex circuitry can come up with. So everything that happens in our heads in regardance to decisions that have no physical influence could be considered as 'spirit'. As goes for all living creatures.


    I feel that 'energy' could be something to be considered here, despite it not being part of the argument, it relates strongly to Matter. According to Einstein, Energy is related to Matter, E=mc^2 Meaning that the amount of energy contained within a particular mass of matter, is found my multiplying it by the speed of light squared.
    The speed if light is a substantial amount, and squaring it is even more so, meaning that the amount of energy in 1kg of matter equates to about 829 PETAJOULES of energy, that's 829 with 15 zeros... It's easy to see how nuclear weapons can be so destructive with such a small amount of fuel..

    But moving away from the science, energy cannot be created or destroyed, it is just there all the time, converted from one form to another. I guess that by going along with the idea of a spirit, they are quite similar. It exists unconditionally. Could you consider 'Spirit' to be a form of 'Energy'?
    If you don't know that Matter is whatever has Mass, and that Mass is a measure of INERTIA, then I'd say this topic is beyond you. Best you leave it alone until you've studied some basic physics. Start with Newton's Laws of Motion. It's high school stuff.
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    (Original post by Zaki)
    If you don't know that Matter is whatever has Mass, and that Mass is a measure of INERTIA, then I'd say this topic is beyond you. Best you leave it alone until you've studied some basic physics. Start with Newton's Laws of Motion. It's high school stuff.
    Apologies for making you think I'm not aware of physics, but it's only the word 'inertia' which has never been mentioned to me before, possibly due to bad teaching. If you would please be kind enough to explain inertia then I'd be able to understand things a bit better.

    I know matter has mass, and I'm currently doing Mechanical Engineering in University and recaived an A grade in physics.. I find it rather shocking that 'inertia' had not been dicsussed to me.
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    (Original post by Ruthless Dutchman)
    Apologies for making you think I'm not aware of physics, but it's only the word 'inertia' which has never been mentioned to me before, possibly due to bad teaching. If you would please be kind enough to explain inertia then I'd be able to understand things a bit better.

    I know matter has mass, and I'm currently doing Mechanical Engineering in University and recaived an A grade in physics.. I find it rather shocking that 'inertia' had not been dicsussed to me.
    Oh brother! You're studying Mechanical Engineering at university and haven't heard of Newton's Laws of Motion? What is going on in our country today?

    Well, listen: Just google Newton's Laws of Motion and read what it says about the first law. That should see you right. It's not very long or difficult to understand.
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    (Original post by Ruthless Dutchman)
    I find it rather shocking that 'inertia' had not been dicsussed to me.
    So do I. Surely it is GCSE stuff? Inertia is simply the resistance of any physical object to a change in its state of motion or rest - the tendency of something to resist any change in its motion - and is proportional to an object's mass.

    It is also a feeling that comes over you when you have been exposed to too many of Zaki's strident, ill-thought and irritatingly presented posts.

    (Original post by Zaki)
    Spontaneity - of which human free will is but one conformation is responsible for INITIATING ALL things.
    But ask yourself, where did spontaneity come from?
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    I say tomatoes you say tomatoes in an american accent. Same thing.
    Either way this world has mysteries but saying spirits exist is too RE and not science like.
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    Bloody hell, it's like you've just ingested half a dozen Eckhart Tolle books and are now violently ****ting them all over my screen.
 
 
 
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