Inequality is inevitable Watch

tazarooni89
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Emaemmaemily)
I certainly disagree with the poster above myself.
The income gap cannot be explained simply because of differences in intelligence.
I understood the above poster to be suggesting that the income gap is largely explained by differences in intelligence and propensity to produce, rather than just intelligence alone.

Propensity to produce can surely be influenced by all of those other factors you mentioned e.g. not using one's innate intelligence to its full potential. Given what you and aspiringlawstudent have both written, I don't really see where the disagreement is.
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danny111
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#22
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#22
(Original post by missyoung84)
Is it?

Is it the fault of past and present governments of the UK that the inequality gap (particularly socio-economic and health inequalities) is stark and rising? For example 'The rise in inequality during the Tony Blair years was rapid. As Blair came to power, the best-off one-thousandth (0.1 per cent) of the population received an income 61 times what the 90 per cent at the bottom received; by 2007 this ratio had risen to 95 times.'

Is this due to government policy, or is it particular outside forces or stratification to blame?

Why are some people in favour of, and in fact celebrate, inequality? David Davis for example 'inequalities are widened by people getting richer, not the poor getting poorer - but by the rich getting richer. And frankly, so long as they generate wealth for the economy, so long as they generate tax income and so on, then I'm comfortable with it.'

Is this even true? Not according to projections by the Resolution Foundation 'Over the 2008 to 2020 period as a whole, the modelling suggests a decline in real terms income of around 5 percent for low to middle income households and around 19 percent for households reliant on benefits. Only higher income households—those above middle income—see income growth, of around two per cent over the period.'

I'm reading an increasing number of reports which agree with The Spirit Level authors that 'wellbeing and happiness hasn't just ceased to rise with economic growth in affluent countries, as they have grown richer rates of problems which include anxiety and depression have seen a long-term increase'


Economic growth doesn't appear to be the answer anymore.

Is inequality as we know it, as we see it expanding, inevitable?
No. Look at the Scandinavian model.
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danny111
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#23
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#23
(Original post by missyoung84)
Do you really believe that?

I find it difficult to believe that most people can't see that, being privately educated due to the wealth of your parents for example, doesn't put you at a distinct advantage to somebody whose parents struggle in some way, especially financially.

Lets take a common example - a mother and father with two children living on benefits after being the mother was made redundant from a call centre job and the father was made redundant from a manufacturing role. You really believe that simply by being smart (even though your parents haven't the wealth to buy you an enhanced education, let alone the cultural capital to ensure you get the most out of state education), motivated (even though your role models have shown you that all your education will achieve is an entry level job with no stability) hard-working and talented... that those children have the same chance to 'succeed' as somebody with wealthy parents in high-end employment of some kind?

It's nothing to do with envy. It's the fact that certain people have distinct advantages over others, just because of wealth - and surely that's something we should address, NOT celebrate (or accept).
He's a troll, don't bother.
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Emaemmaemily
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#24
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#24
(Original post by tazarooni89)
I understood the above poster to be suggesting that the income gap is largely explained by differences in intelligence and propensity to produce, rather than just intelligence alone.

Propensity to produce can surely be influenced by all of those other factors you mentioned e.g. not using one's innate intelligence to its full potential. Given what you and aspiringlawstudent have both written, I don't really see where the disagreement is.
Perhaps you should read them again then, seeing as we are saying quite different things. Let me know if you have something new to add.
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Hooj
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#25
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#25
Inequality will remain but people will still push for complete equality when it's never going to nor should ever happen.
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Emaemmaemily
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#26
(Original post by Hooj)
Inequality will remain but people will still push for complete equality when it's never going to nor should ever happen.
You're right, inequality can't/shouldn't be completely irradicated, because there are natural differences between people. What we should push for is equal opportunities, and a society where everyone has a far closer to equal chance at things, at least.
Inequality is natural with the differences between us, but the inequality we currently see is far more extreme than it would be "naturally" because of the way out society works. Other countries have far better systems than us; yes, there is still inequality there, but it is far less extreme and there is more social mobility, therefore it is a fairer system.
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pg_maths
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Emaemmaemily)
You're right, inequality can't/shouldn't be completely irradicated, because there are natural differences between people. What we should push for is equal opportunities, and a society where everyone has a far closer to equal chance at things, at least.
Inequality is natural with the differences between us, but the inequality we currently see is far more extreme than it would be "naturally" because of the way out society works. Other countries have far better systems than us; yes, there is still inequality there, but it is far less extreme and there is more social mobility, therefore it is a fairer system.
I don't often say this - but I agree with all that.
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Aspiringlawstudent
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#28
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#28
(Original post by missyoung84)
I suggest abolishing private education.
Disgusting.

Why not abolish everything that is better than average? You want to bring the best down rather than raise everyone else up.

You would rather the poor were poorer so long as the rich were less rich.
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danny111
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#29
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(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
Disgusting.

Why not abolish everything that is better than average? You want to bring the best down rather than raise everyone else up.

You would rather the poor were poorer so long as the rich were less rich.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...xpires_in=3785

Buffet must have read your post.
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pg_maths
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
Disgusting.

Why not abolish everything that is better than average? You want to bring the best down rather than raise everyone else up.

You would rather the poor were poorer so long as the rich were less rich.
Well said. The left don't care about a better overall outcome, only that their chip-on-shoulder concerns are addressed such as making everyone into mr and mrs average all on the same money decided by corrupt communist politicians who obviously know best for all of us...
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danny111
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(Original post by pg_maths)
Well said. The left don't care about a better overall outcome, only that their chip-on-shoulder concerns are addressed such as making everyone into mr and mrs average all on the same money decided by corrupt communist politicians who obviously know best for all of us...
Aww so sweet, how about you two go on a date?
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pg_maths
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#32
(Original post by danny111)
Aww so sweet, how about you two go on a date?
I can actually arrange my own dates and indeed everything else in my life without requiring a communist input. Thanks all the same.
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Aspiringlawstudent
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#33
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(Original post by pg_maths)
Well said. The left don't care about a better overall outcome, only that their chip-on-shoulder concerns are addressed such as making everyone into mr and mrs average all on the same money decided by corrupt communist politicians who obviously know best for all of us...
The only accomplishment of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
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danny111
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
The only accomplishment of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
Do you actually believe the stuff you say? Where do you get your information from, or on what do you base your opinion?
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Aspiringlawstudent
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#35
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(Original post by danny111)
Do you actually believe the stuff you say? Where do you get your information from, or on what do you base your opinion?
Of course I believe it.

Have you ever read Hayek's The Road to Serfdom?

Bastiat's The Law?

Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson?

Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments?

If not, I would suggest doing so, and could list a dozen more.
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danny111
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(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
Of course I believe it.

Have you ever read Hayek's The Road to Serfdom?

Bastiat's The Law?

Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson?

Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments?

If not, I would suggest doing so, and could list a dozen more.
No thank you, those are all ancient, and liberal bull****. No one takes Austrian School seriously anymore.
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Aspiringlawstudent
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(Original post by danny111)
No thank you, those are all ancient, and liberal bull****. No one takes Austrian School seriously anymore.
I can't really have an intelligent debate with someone who refuses to engage with what I'm saying, I'm afraid. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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tazarooni89
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#38
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(Original post by Emaemmaemily)
Perhaps you should read them again then, seeing as we are saying quite different things. Let me know if you have something new to add.
I don't particularly think you are saying quite different things. It looks to me more like both your arguments are quite compatible with each other, but that you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting each other's points.

For example, you made the point that not all people on low wages are stupid, and aspiringlawstudent made the point that he didn't even say that. In general, it seems as though you haven't taken account of the part of his argument where he says, not only may it be lower levels of intelligence causing X Y and Z, but also a lower propensity to produce. Surely this already encompasses everything you've said about intelligence having to be nurtured etc.
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danny111
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#39
(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
I can't really have an intelligent debate with someone who refuses to engage with what I'm saying, I'm afraid. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Because you telling me to read a book is so engaging, right?

But I agree, there is no debating with you.
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mmmpie
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I doubt we'll ever be rid of inequality, certainly not in the foreseeable future, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to be.

We'll never be rid of the rich-poor divide while we still have currency, for example. But equality of opportunity might be more achievable, as the conversation about private schooling illustrates.
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