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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    What if feel empathy yet, find the thrill and enjoyment of the hunt and the kill simply to be greater.

    It shows you simply have a passion that is greater than other feelings, not that one feeling is stunted.
    I simply don't believe you. I think if you understood the pain, fear and suffering caused to a creature by shooting it to death, you would find the idea of doing so for 'the thrill and enjoyment of the hunt and the kill' to be intolerable. That, or we have fundamentally irreconcilable ways of perceiving the world.

    I wonder how you would feel about someone using your views to support hunting the homeless, for example.
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    I have no problem with hunting, I've done pest control before, but I'd love to have the oppurtunity to hunt game.
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    I think it is better to hunt for food than to keep them in captivity all of their lives then slaughter them. And at least it shows a willingness to acknowledge where meat comes from, unlike people who pretend meat appears in a supermarket and shut themselves off from how it is produced. Still, I find the idea of posing with an animal with a massive grin rather disgusting.
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    (Original post by miser)
    I simply don't believe you. I think if you understood the pain, fear and suffering caused to a creature by shooting it to death, you would find the idea of doing so for 'the thrill and enjoyment of the hunt and the kill' to be intolerable. That, or we have fundamentally irreconcilable ways of perceiving the world.
    I understand the fear and pain, ive felt the fear of being killed myself, and ive witnessed the death of others, and greived when I personally took the life of other humans.
    I understand that loss and empathy.

    However the main thing here is that we are not designed to have that level of empathy for animals and those that do are showing unnatural and restrictive ammounts of an emotiona that is meant to preserve pack strength.

    That's why billions of humans shove dead animal flesh into there mouth every day and don't give a ****.
    That's why millions are employed in the slaughter of captive animals.
    We have little ingrained natural empathy when it comes to animals, especially animals that we want to eat or use.

    As it is im not shooting the animal, then pushing my finger in the wound for a bit, kicking it in the ribs for good measure then sitting on it till it bleeds out.

    I shoot, if the shot itself didn't do the job, I slit it's throat as quickly as possible, there is no desire to create suffering, I am not showing a lack of empathy.

    If anything my empathy is made apparent in my desire to end it's suffering.

    I wonder how you would feel about someone using your views to support hunting the homeless, for example.
    I doubt it could be, but I would oppose such a view as it runs contrary to self-preservation of the species.

    I don't care for that sort of straw-man argument eitherway.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    I have no problem with hunting, I've done pest control before, but I'd love to have the oppurtunity to hunt game.
    If you ever have the time and finances to do so, I would strongly recommend it my friend!
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    I think it is better to hunt for food than to keep them in captivity all of their lives then slaughter them. And at least it shows a willingness to acknowledge where meat comes from, unlike people who pretend meat appears in a supermarket and shut themselves off from how it is produced. Still, I find the idea of posing with an animal with a massive grin rather disgusting.
    Why?

    Im not hunting it to feed myself, for the price a hunting trip costs me, I could buy three-fold the meat I take from an average hunt.

    I hunt because it's a challenge and a hobby, and like anything worth doing that you enjoy, you are proud of your achievements, why shouldn't it be documented?
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    (Original post by miser)
    I could never imagine killing animals for fun. To find enjoyment in killing anything strikes me as critically lacking in empathy.
    Completely agreed. I couldn't kill an animal unless I was desperate for food - surviving in the wilderness type situations.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I understand the fear and pain, ive felt the fear of being killed myself, and ive witnessed the death of others, and greived when I personally took the life of other humans.
    I understand that loss and empathy.
    Then why would you want to inflict it on others? Is your enjoyment really worth more than that animal's deepest possible desire to not be shot and experience excruciating pain and anguish before you ultimately kill it? Why?

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    However the main thing here is that we are not designed to have that level of empathy for animals and those that do are showing unnatural and restrictive ammounts of an emotiona that is meant to preserve pack strength.
    We're not 'designed' at all. Even if we were, though we would be of a predisposition to act in the way in which we were designed to, it would be a non-sequitur to claim that we should act in that way or that acting in that way must be ethical.

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    That's why billions of humans shove dead animal flesh into there mouth every day and don't give a ****.
    That's why millions are employed in the slaughter of captive animals.
    We have little ingrained natural empathy when it comes to animals, especially animals that we want to eat or use.
    That's completely true (and I hope it will change).

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    As it is im not shooting the animal, then pushing my finger in the wound for a bit, kicking it in the ribs for good measure then sitting on it till it bleeds out.
    Would that be wrong? If so, why? Have you not already argued as if your enjoyment for the 'thrill of the kill' completely overrides whatever rights or interests that animal has?

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I shoot, if the shot itself didn't do the job, I slit it's throat as quickly as possible, there is no desire to create suffering, I am not showing a lack of empathy.

    If anything my empathy is made apparent in my desire to end it's suffering.
    If you honestly cared at all about minimising suffering then you wouldn't be shooting anything, so permit me not to take you quite seriously.

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I doubt it could be, but I would oppose such a view as it runs contrary to self-preservation of the species.

    I don't care for that sort of straw-man argument eitherway.
    If it's a straw man then please point out where the distinction lies. If it is simply that the homeless are humans rather than some other species then that's just speciesist and oughtn't to be relevant. If it is because of concerns for the 'preservation of the species': there is absolutely zero risk from shooting homeless people that our species will fail to be preserved.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    Why?

    Im not hunting it to feed myself, for the price a hunting trip costs me, I could buy three-fold the meat I take from an average hunt.

    I hunt because it's a challenge and a hobby, and like anything worth doing that you enjoy, you are proud of your achievements, why shouldn't it be documented?
    I believe animals deserve moral consideration as they have the ability to feel pain and have a desire to remain alive. It is therefore wrong to take their life, and that is why I find posing with their dead bodies sickening. A hobby that involves the suffering of another is not one I can condone.
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    I'm a vegan and whilst I have bigger issues with the meat/dairy industry, I do also oppose hunting as a sport. My view? That I could never enjoy death, it would not be fun for me.

    I understand that it is enjoyable for you but I don't think that makes it right, I think we as a society are responsible for forming rules and thus laws that are fair and just. Rape, murder, animal abuse, child neglect are obvious misuse of authority and strength, we can argue the negative impacts, but, they are also things that people are capable of enjoying and being proud of.

    I am aware that animals being slaughtered for food is part of the food web, it's not unjust, and I think it's perfectly acceptable (as long as it is done humanely). But I think hunting as a sport should be illegal. Whilst culling as a method of conservation is entirely different, it's not done for personal gain, and it's done for the greater benefits of a thriving population (which is usually struggling in the first place due to human interference). I think a society which values life, rejects the notion that killing should ever be done for sport or fun, is a society which upholds values above personal satisfaction.
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    I believe animals deserve moral consideration as they have the ability to feel pain and have a desire to remain alive. It is therefore wrong to take their life, and that is why I find posing with their dead bodies sickening.
    Doth not the bird devour the worm?
    The Lion the Antelope?
    The Eagle the Vole?

    Why should I be dissalowed from the hunt?

    A hobby that involves the suffering of another is not one I can condone.
    Take it your not a fan of Boxing either >.>
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    Doth not the bird devour the worm?
    The Lion the Antelope?
    The Eagle the Vole?

    Why should I be dissalowed from the hunt?
    Doth not the bottlenose dolphin rape? 'Other animals do it' is not a proper moral justification for anything.
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    (Original post by miser)
    Then why would you want to inflict it on others? Is your enjoyment really worth more than that animal's deepest possible desire to not be shot and experience excruciating pain and anguish before you ultimately kill it? Why?
    You presume Animals have rights, rights are a Human concept we give to ourselves.

    If Animals can hunt and kill and tourture other animals.
    Then I can do it too.

    Natural order.


    We're not 'designed' at all. Even if we were, though we would be of a predisposition to act in the way in which we were designed to, it would be a non-sequitur to claim that we should act in that way or that acting in that way must be ethical.
    I used the word designed to indicate Evolutionary desires and instincts

    That's completely true (and I hope it will change).
    I don't.

    Would that be wrong? If so, why?
    It might not be wrong at all.
    Though it would show a dangerous trait to enjoy suffering, something which could lead to dangers to other Humans.

    Have you not already argued as if your enjoyment for the 'thrill of the kill' completely overrides whatever rights or interests that animal has?
    What rights?
    The Challenge is the aim, suffering is an unfourtunate by-product.

    If you honestly cared at all about minimising suffering then you wouldn't be shooting anything, so permit me not to take you quite seriously.
    I care about minimizing suffering within the confines of what I set out to do.
    Taking a life carries with it an unavoidable aspect of suffering, I personally try to minimize that suffering within the restrictions of still carrying out the Hunt.

    If it's a straw man then please point out where the distinction lies. If it is simply that the homeless are humans rather than some other species then that's just speciesist and oughtn't to be relevant.
    Why not?
    Bias towards our own species is biologically ingrained withinus, it's a natural predisposition.

    If it is because of concerns for the 'preservation of the species': there is absolutely zero risk from shooting homeless people that our species will fail to be preserved.
    A taking of a human life harms the species, because it reduces one from the ranks.
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    (Original post by miser)
    Doth not the bottlenose dolphin rape? 'Other animals do it' is not a proper moral justification for anything.
    Why not?(in terms of interspecieis killing)

    Rape has negative reprocussions among our own kind, so there are valid reasons to disallow it.

    Me shooting a deer, does not.
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    (Original post by JinxedOut)
    I'm a vegan and whilst I have bigger issues with the meat/dairy industry, I do also oppose hunting as a sport. My view? That I could never enjoy death, it would not be fun for me.

    I understand that it is enjoyable for you but I don't think that makes it right, I think we as a society are responsible for forming rules and thus laws that are fair and just. Rape, murder, animal abuse, child neglect are obvious misuse of authority and strength, we can argue the negative impacts, but, they are also things that people are capable of enjoying and being proud of.

    I am aware that animals being slaughtered for food is part of the food web, it's not unjust, and I think it's perfectly acceptable (as long as it is done humanely). But I think hunting as a sport should be illegal. Whilst culling as a method of conservation is entirely different, it's not done for personal gain, and it's done for the greater benefits of a thriving population (which is usually struggling in the first place due to human interference). I think a society which values life, rejects the notion that killing should ever be done for sport or fun, is a society which upholds values above personal satisfaction.
    What gives you the impression we are a soceity that values lifes?
    More specifically animal life.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    You presume Animals have rights, rights are a Human concept we give to ourselves.
    I certainly do presume it! Rights exist as an implication of our vulnerability to suffering. For the same reasons we recognise them as existing for us they exist for animals.

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    If Animals can hunt and kill and tourture other animals.
    Then I can do it too.

    Natural order.
    You would seriously get your morals from chimpanzees? :rolleyes:

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I used the word designed to indicate Evolutionary desires and instincts
    Then there was not even any intention for us to have the desires that we have. There's literally no reason for us to act in accordance with them other than that's where our bias lies.

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    It might not be wrong at all.
    Though it would show a dangerous trait to enjoy suffering, something which could lead to dangers to other Humans.
    Now you're saying it might not be wrong to torture animals? What on earth do you find wrong?

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    What rights?
    The Challenge is the aim, suffering is an unfourtunate by-product.
    The right of any conscious creature not to be killed and subjected to abject suffering in the name of 'fun'. That you don't recognise that right is disturbing.

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I care about minimizing suffering within the confines of what I set out to do.
    Taking a life carries with it an unavoidable aspect of suffering, I personally try to minimize that suffering within the restrictions of still carrying out the Hunt.
    I can only imagine a torturer giving the same argument. "But I don't cause more suffering than is needed! Suffering is an unfortunate by-product of my profession." :rolleyes:

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    Why not?
    Bias towards our own species is biologically ingrained withinus, it's a natural predisposition.
    What is natural is not the same as what is right. Do you follow all that is biologically ingrained within you? I expect these protestations would not hold up well in a court of law - "But Judge, it was biologically ingrained within me; it was my natural predisposition to do it!"

    (Original post by Syrokal)
    A taking of a human life harms the species, because it reduces one from the ranks.
    This doesn't sound like you talking. Evolution is competitive in nature. By lessening the competition you should be thrilled at your genes getting an increased opportunity for propagation.
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    (Original post by miser)
    I certainly do presume it! Rights exist as an implication of our vulnerability to suffering. For the same reasons we recognise them as existing for us they exist for animals.
    What a peculiar leap of logic.


    You would seriously get your morals from chimpanzees? :rolleyes:
    I would get them from wherever I will, i'm not naive enough to think there is some universal tick list of what's good and bad.

    Then there was not even any intention for us to have the desires that we have. There's literally no reason for us to act in accordance with them other than that's where our bias lies.
    That's a good enough reason.

    Now you're saying it might not be wrong to torture animals? What on earth do you find wrong?
    This and that, writing a comprehensive list may take a while.

    The right of any conscious creature not to be killed and subjected to abject suffering in the name of 'fun'. That you don't recognise that right is disturbing.
    That you do is silly.

    I can only imagine a torturer giving the same argument. "But I don't cause more suffering than is needed! Suffering is an unfortunate by-product of my profession." :rolleyes:
    And indeed it is.

    What is natural is not the same as what is right. Do you follow all that is biologically ingrained within you?
    Yes actually, as long as it doesn't cause me more harm than good.

    I expect these protestations would not hold up well in a court of law - "But Judge, it was biologically ingrained within me; it was my natural predisposition to do it!"
    It might not.

    Good job were talking about killing animals here, and not going to court.


    This doesn't sound like you talking. Evolution is competitive in nature. By lessening the competition you should be thrilled at your genes getting an increased opportunity for propagation.
    Already got that sorted.

    Homeless people are hardly "competition"

    Unless you know..that's what "your" into...then by all means, find a nice cardboard box and ...do whatever it is you do.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    Doth not the bird devour the worm?
    The Lion the Antelope?
    The Eagle the Vole?

    Why should I be dissalowed from the hunt?


    Take it your not a fan of Boxing either >.>
    They do not have the ability to morally reason - we do. It would be wrong for those animals to kill others if they were aware of the moral consequences and they were able to survive without taking them.

    Boxing is acceptable because both participants can consent. That's why it's wrong to watch one person attack another for entertainment without their one party's knowledge, but it is OK to watch a boxing match.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    What a peculiar leap of logic.



    I would get them from wherever I will, i'm not naive enough to think there is some universal tick list of what's good and bad.


    That's a good enough reason.


    This and that, writing a comprehensive list may take a while.


    That you do is silly.


    And indeed it is.


    Yes actually, as long as it doesn't cause me more harm than good.


    It might not.

    Good job were talking about killing animals here, and not going to court.



    Already got that sorted.

    Homeless people are hardly "competition"

    Unless you know..that's what "your" into...then by all means, find a nice cardboard box and ...do whatever it is you do.
    Alright, I don't think I can debate this anymore. We have no framework for it - you're evidently some kind of moral nihilist that doesn't care about causing suffering, or if you do it's only for selfish reasons like the preservation of your own kind.

    We fundamentally disagree, and I don't fancy another debate about attempting to prove the existence of morality.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    What gives you the impression we are a soceity that values lifes?
    More specifically animal life.
    If you read what I said properly, I didn't say we ARE a society that does. I said that a society which values life is one that puts values before personal satisfaction.

    Clearly society as a construct differs from country to country, depending on the system of laws in place and their enforcement, as well as cultural influences, demographic distributions, environmental surroundings (space available), resources, politics etc etc.

    But, I think that is what society should aim towards though, valuing life before personal satisfaction. I think we should be constantly aiming to improve human and animal rights.

    (Humans are animals btw.)
 
 
 
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