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Why do the right want to return us to the 1800s? Watch

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    (Original post by alex5455)
    So right wingers, who want to abolish the NMW, health and safety, working time regulations, working conditions regulations, safety standards for products, benefits.

    This is what britain was in the 1800s, and will turn britain back into what it was then, the rich, feasting and partying while the poor suffer and starve. do you want to go back to working 20 hour days, for starvation wages in unsafe conditions, when you can be sacked for getting ill or hurt and receive no sick pay, and no unemployment help or disability support?

    capitalism had its chance and has failed.
    Last I checked most of the world is capitalist. Last I checked "the Right" was not a single homogeneous movement that believes all the same things....
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    (Original post by alex5455)
    certainly, right wing, economic sense, ie tories, ukip, american republicans for reference, think ayn rand maybe a little less evil though

    and capitalism, the failure we have now for an economic system
    Well those aren't actually definitions, those are examples.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Last I checked "the Right" was not a single homogeneous movement that believes all the same things....
    That's true. Though I've noticed a lot of people making such generalisations about the left as well.

    It's as if by being on a certain side of the political spectrum, people just suddenly become part of some kind of Borg Collective where they all think alike. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by PythianLegume)
    You are aware that Britain and the US became so powerful in the last 200 years mainly due to their capitalist natures, right? I'm not saying living in the 1800s was nice in Britain, but it was probably much nicer than living in most other places. Also, introducing some old-style laws (not that anyone realistically wants to) would not take us back to the 1800s, because far too much has changed.
    Have you seen what life was like for ordinary people in the industrial revolution??? I'd much rather be a peasant farmer working with the rising and setting of the sun than the factory worker doing 18 hours days to the sound of the bell.
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    (Original post by Nick100)
    While we're asking silly, caricature based questions, why does the left want to turn us into a poverty-stricken People's Republic where coal mining is still subsidized?

    On a more serious note:

    And has it occurred to you that the reason wages were crap in the 1800s is because our economy wasn't producing anywhere near as much as it is now? Would you impose the policies that you laud on Zimbabwe - a country which has a pitiful economy? Or do you understand that capitalism is the only reason that the policies you support are even economically viable in the first place. If you tried to create a welfare state as large as the one we have today (in terms of % of GDP - it would be completely impossible to match it in absolute GDP per capita) in 1813 it would be a complete failure.

    Do you actually know when the National Minimum Wage was created? Do you actually know what effects health & safety regulations have or do you just assume that they merely protect people with no negative effects (and they don't just apply in the workplace either)? Are you aware that one can support safety standards without supporting government mandated safety standards? Have you considered that the welfare and pensions system might have some problems like the fact that it consumes all income tax revenues, petrol tax revenues, and still has several trillion pounds of unfunded liabities which will cause problems in the future?
    You think the reason wages were low was due to lower production? Your very ignorant the reason was the rich factory owners wanted more money for themselves and they did get very wealthy off the suffering of others. We were one of the most productive countries in the 1800's with a large empire and all the resources from that came with it there was a lot of money but it was all concentrated in the top few percent of the population, a trend that is reemerging.
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    (Original post by The Socktor)
    That's true. Though I've noticed a lot of people making such generalisations about the left as well.

    It's as if by being on a certain side of the political spectrum, people just suddenly become part of some kind of Borg Collective where they all think alike. :rolleyes:
    We are the Socialists, you will be provided for, resistance is futile.
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    (Original post by amholcroft)
    We are the Socialists, you will be provided for, resistance is futile.
    I noticed you're from Kenilworth, hello from up the road in Leamington....
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    (Original post by alex5455)
    certainly, right wing, economic sense, ie tories, ukip, american republicans for reference, think ayn rand maybe a little less evil though

    and capitalism, the failure we have now for an economic system
    Because the alternatives have worked so well haven't they?

    It was the left that had their time and blew it. Get over it and get off welfare.
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    (Original post by amholcroft)
    You think the reason wages were low was due to lower production? Your very ignorant the reason was the rich factory owners wanted more money for themselves and they did get very wealthy off the suffering of others. We were one of the most productive countries in the 1800's with a large empire and all the resources from that came with it there was a lot of money but it was all concentrated in the top few percent of the population, a trend that is reemerging.
    Rubbish; how many aeroplanes did we build in 1900? Wages could only be brought to their current level because of increased production; the richest country on Earth in 1900 would be a backwards, poverty-stricken third world hellhole by modern standards even if its wealth was somehow distributed equally. We didn't steal all of our cars from India; the natural resources acquired from the rest of the empire were a fraction of the wealth produced by the UK proper, and by some reckonings the Empire continually cost more than would have been brought in by free trade (and that argument goes all the way back to Adam Smith).

    The wealth of the poor cannot be increased substantially without economic growth - if you had tried to set up our current welfare state in 1813 or 1913 it would have consumed all material wealth produced by the nation.
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    I noticed you're from Kenilworth, hello from up the road in Leamington....
    Ha Hello! How's Leamington today?
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    (Original post by amholcroft)
    Have you seen what life was like for ordinary people in the industrial revolution??? I'd much rather be a peasant farmer working with the rising and setting of the sun than the factory worker doing 18 hours days to the sound of the bell.
    So you'd be happy to see you're family starve to death and die of disease?

    It wasn't until after the Industrial revolution that things started to get a bit easier for the general public
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    If you look at Germany for example. They don't even have a minimum wage. Are they exploiting their workers?
    Not completely true. There is no one fixed minimum wage but it's illegal to pay someone below 75% of the average salary for their occupation, which amounts to pretty much the same thing.
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    (Original post by Nick100)
    Rubbish; how many aeroplanes did we build in 1900? Wages could only be brought to their current level because of increased production; the richest country on Earth in 1900 would be a backwards, poverty-stricken third world hellhole by modern standards even if its wealth was somehow distributed equally. We didn't steal all of our cars from India; the natural resources acquired from the rest of the empire were a fraction of the wealth produced by the UK proper, and by some reckonings the Empire continually cost more than would have been brought in by free trade (and that argument goes all the way back to Adam Smith).

    The wealth of the poor cannot be increased substantially without economic growth - if you had tried to set up our current welfare state in 1813 or 1913 it would have consumed all material wealth produced by the nation.

    ...Waw... Ok then I'm not arguing with you if your gonna talk such dribble that's like saying the USA wasn't a manufacturing power house because it didn't produce ipads in the early 1900's terrible comparison.

    You must have absolutely no knowledge of history with your broad assertions of peoples living standards in recent past.

    You may respond but I'm not in the mood for a barking match today.
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    (Original post by Chlorophile)
    Not completely true. There is no one fixed minimum wage but it's illegal to pay someone below 75% of the average salary for their occupation, which amounts to pretty much the same thing.
    However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases.


    Either way, They're a booming economy and still manage to undercut their neighbours who are annoyed about it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22080862
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    So you'd be happy to see you're family starve to death and die of disease?

    It wasn't until after the Industrial revolution that things started to get a bit easier for the general public
    Maybe you should look into the malnutrition and disease epidemics in idustrialised Britain.

    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...tion_towns.htm

    As for life getting easier due to the Industrial Revolution that's a myth.

    http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/user..._workweek.html
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    (Original post by amholcroft)
    ...Waw... Ok then I'm not arguing with you if your gonna talk such dribble that's like saying the USA wasn't a manufacturing power house because it didn't produce ipads in the early 1900's terrible comparison.

    You must have absolutely no knowledge of history with your broad assertions of peoples living standards in recent past.

    You may respond but I'm not in the mood for a barking match today.
    You have completely missed the point of my post. The USA of 1900 may have been a manufacturing powerhouse relative to the world of 1900 but not relative to its modern counterpart. Do you dispute that America's manufacturing output has increased greatly over the past 100 years? Do you dispute that no amount of wealth redistribution in the early 1900s would have given the average American access to modern luxuries that they take for granted?
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    (Original post by Nick100)
    You have completely missed the point of my post. The USA of 1900 may have been a manufacturing powerhouse relative to the world of 1900 but not relative to its modern counterpart. Do you dispute that America's manufacturing output has increased greatly over the past 100 years? Do you dispute that no amount of wealth redistribution in the early 1900s would have given the average American access to modern luxuries that they take for granted?
    This is more to do with food being a smaller portion of peoples budgets and luxury goods being cheaply made and imported often from China. Direct comparisons are very hard to do as the world has changed truely global markets etc have changed our way of life completely.

    The fact that factory owners in Britain used to pay their workers the least they could while making what would be millions today is still true, are you going to argue that they couldn't afford to pay them a living wage?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases.


    Either way, They're a booming economy and still manage to undercut their neighbours who are annoyed about it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22080862
    Two sides(atleast) to every story!

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-832724.html
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    This is oversimplification. What we're living in is something dubbed inverse-totalitarianism.

    -Government is full of privately-educated careerist politicians with no principals and few morals. They move on to well-paid jobs in exchange for furthering corporations' interests.
    -The raison d'etre of government in this sense is to serve the interests of these corporations.
    -The major parties are generally politically inseparable - all are fairly centre-right. Politicians are separated by personality.
    -Our first-past-the-post system and the immense funds needed for election prevent any new or smaller parties from gaining any traction or influence.
    -The mass media is overwhelmingly owned by Rupert Murdoch and News Corp, which has a clear right-wing, neoliberal agenda. Dissent is left to a few people at independent publications. Media portrayal is everything
    -Most of the population are mired in political apathy and feel (perhaps accurately) that they have little voice for change.
    -Government is pushing the free-market and cutting the welfare state to fund its donors and friends.
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    (Original post by amholcroft)
    This is more to do with food being a smaller portion of peoples budgets and luxury goods being cheaply made and imported often from China. Direct comparisons are very hard to do as the world has changed truely global markets etc have changed our way of life completely.

    The fact that factory owners in Britain used to pay their workers the least they could while making what would be millions today is still true, are you going to argue that they couldn't afford to pay them a living wage?
    I'm arguing that even if you took all of the wealth produced in Britain in 1900 and paid every worker equally they would still be worse off than even the poorest workers today. They would be earning less than minimum wage today because the country's production was not high enough. The price of just about everything has fallen over the past hundred years.
 
 
 
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