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    I'm sorry, but, anyone that doesn't believe in ghosts and aliens is a idiot, and furthermore, small minded, pompous and believe in their own intelligence too much, maybe that sums up scientists, I don't know.
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    (Original post by PDM.)
    I'm sorry, but, anyone that doesn't believe in ghosts and aliens is a idiot.
    See none believers/scientists? calling people idiots because they don't believe in something is hurtful and rude, now how do you feel? hopefully you have learnt a lesson.
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    (Original post by wrnicholls)
    But energy doesn't form a seemingly conscious being that floats around being sometimes invisible/visible in the shape of the person it would've come from.

    However the energy is transferred to decomposers etc. If energy all ended up in ghosts, the energy cycle would deplete. Other animals would also have to have ghosts, so further reducing the energy moving round the cycle.
    (I think the original comment was complete nonsense however):

    Not necessarily! The energy in the cycle is not locked, its an open system.

    1) Energy enters the cycle through photosyntheses (ultimately from converting mass to energy in the sun)

    2) Energy leaks out of the cycle in the form of heat from inefficient muscles and purposeful body temperature regulation + any other inefficiencies (metabolising chemicals etc etc)

    So it is feasible for a creature to build up the silly magic energy reserve that no one can detect. The only way you could disprove it is to grow something with a soul in a sealed chamber and very accurately measure the input energy (in food) and output energy (as heat), then kill the person and measure the energy remaining in their corpse. If there is a difference then you have the energy used up by a soul! Of course the errors in it would be massive so its not very feasible to accomplish even if you were willing to overlook the ethical issues.

    Bah!
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    (Original post by miser)
    If Djinn are made of fire and smoke, then how are they invisible?

    I used to believe in demons, angels, prayer, black magic, etc., but I don't anymore. I believe in aliens (or at least in the likelihood of them), but I don't believe that they have visited earth. I don't think aliens should be classed as paranormal as if they exist then they will be a purely natural phenomenon.
    They aren't literally made of fire but i assume the components of it, so for example, thick smoke, heat, some people have said high frequency rays. Basically the opposite of man.

    They live in a different dimension to us, hence if they choose to reveal theirselves we see them, but they always see us. People have claimed they may even travel at the speed of light, so perhaps that contributes to them being "invisible".

    I don't know if i believe aliens exist, i'd like to think so considering the Universe is infinite but honestly i don't think we'll ever find proof.
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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    They aren't literally made of fire but i assume the components of it, so for example, thick smoke, heat, some people have said high frequency rays. Basically the opposite of man.
    I don't understand - why is the opposite of man smoke, heat and high frequency rays?

    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    They live in a different dimension to us, hence if they choose to reveal theirselves we see them, but they always see us. People have claimed they may even travel at the speed of light, so perhaps that contributes to them being "invisible".
    How do we know they move between dimensions, and how do we know that they can see us from their home dimension?

    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    I don't know if i believe aliens exist, i'd like to think so considering the Universe is infinite but honestly i don't think we'll ever find proof.
    Most likely not in our lifetime, but I wouldn't rule it out.
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    (Original post by miser)
    I don't understand - why is the opposite of man smoke, heat and high frequency rays?


    How do we know they move between dimensions, and how do we know that they can see us from their home dimension?


    Most likely not in our lifetime, but I wouldn't rule it out.
    Its a basic concept of man not being able to bear fire and heat. If we can't stand it, means we're obviously not made of it but something the complete opposite, and since they are made of it (and can bear it) they are the opposite to us. And we clearly are not made of rays.

    Well because if they can harm us for example by possessions, then they clearly can see what they're doing. Or even for example magicians, they "control" Jinns by ordering them to go and harm other people, and they agree to it if the magician performs a ritual but thats a whole different matter. What i'm trying to say is if they can harm us they can obviously see us, whereas we can't harm them because they're hidden. We probably could but we'd need to go through steps to reach them whereas they just need to enter our bodies.

    How would you explain possessions?

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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    Its a basic concept of man not being able to bear fire and heat. If we can't stand it, means we're obviously not made of it but something the complete opposite, and since they are made of it (and can bear it) they are the opposite to us. And we clearly are not made of rays.
    But we also cannot bear cold, acid, carbon monoxide, and so forth, but these things cannot all be our opposite. Likewise there are many distinct things that we are not made of.

    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    Well because if they can harm us for example by possessions, then they clearly can see what they're doing. Or even for example magicians, they "control" Jinns by ordering them to go and harm other people, and they agree to it if the magician performs a ritual but thats a whole different matter. What i'm trying to say is if they can harm us they can obviously see us, whereas we can't harm them because they're hidden. We probably could but we'd need to go through steps to reach them whereas they just need to enter our bodies.

    How would you explain possessions?

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    I believe there are many explanations for 'possessions' - for example epileptic fits, psychological disorders and conditioning, and people's preference for supernatural or superstitious explanations over more mundane, scientific ones.
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    (Original post by miser)
    But we also cannot bear cold, acid, carbon monoxide, and so forth, but these things cannot all be our opposite. Likewise there are many distinct things that we are not made of.


    I believe there are many explanations for 'possessions' - for example epileptic fits, psychological disorders and conditioning, and people's preference for supernatural or superstitious explanations over more mundane, scientific ones.
    Okay but what is the effect most of them have on us. They burn us. Which is the primary function of fire. And anyway, the main point is as humans, roughly more than a third of our bodies is made of water, so what is the opposite of water? Fire. Therefore fire is likely to harm us more, which does make it our opposite.

    Just out of curiousity, have you ever witnessed an exorcism? Because if you did, you wouldn't be saying it's due to a psychological disorder. For example, movement is different for Jinns, which is why when a body is possessed they usually end up dislocating arms and legs and can run extremely fast, that behaviour is abnormal and no sane/insane human could do that.

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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    Okay but what is the effect most of them have on us. They burn us. Which is the primary function of fire. And anyway, the main point is as humans, roughly more than a third of our bodies is made of water, so what is the opposite of water? Fire. Therefore fire is likely to harm us more, which does make it our opposite.
    It really depends on what you mean by 'opposite'. I don't think it is particularly meaningful to talk of the opposite of a human. The opposite of fire could just as well be ice.

    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    Just out of curiousity, have you ever witnessed an exorcism? Because if you did, you wouldn't be saying it's due to a psychological disorder. For example, movement is different for Jinns, which is why when a body is possessed they usually end up dislocating arms and legs and can run extremely fast, that behaviour is abnormal and no sane/insane human could do that.

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    I have listened to the tape recordings of the exorcism of Anneliese Michel who inspired the film The Exorcism of Emily Rose, and I have also seen videos of possessions. Both my dad and grandmother claim to have performed exorcisms. I do not have an explanation for all things, but just because I do not have an explanation does not grant me licence to pick any one I like (i.e., that it was the work of Djinns or demons or the devil).

    I'd be interested if you had any links to material talking about this behavioural phenomenon of dislocating one's own limbs and then running quickly.
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    (Original post by miser)
    It really depends on what you mean by 'opposite'. I don't think it is particularly meaningful to talk of the opposite of a human. The opposite of fire could just as well be ice.


    I have listened to the tape recordings of the exorcism of Anneliese Michel who inspired the film The Exorcism of Emily Rose, and I have also seen videos of possessions. Both my dad and grandmother claim to have performed exorcisms. I do not have an explanation for all things, but just because I do not have an explanation does not grant me licence to pick any one I like (i.e., that it was the work of Djinns or demons or the devil).

    I'd be interested if you had any links to material talking about this behavioural phenomenon of dislocating one's own limbs and then running quickly.
    By opposite i mean something that is harmful to us or something our bodies aren't familiar with. Or something we can't particularly associate ourselves with in a good way. I'm sure a lot of things come to mind, but if you took the most basic and simple approach, the main thing is fire. But that's my opinion anyway.

    I did come across a video some time ago explaining this, but i'll need to find it again.

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    Just relating to a comment up above, water isn't harmful to us??? Really? Water is just as harmful as fire is, of course depending on variables. But you get all kinds of germs and diseases from water. If you drink too much, you can get kwashiorkor. To be honest, humans just shouldn't be here, we are reckless, destructful and easily prone to illness's. however plants as animals have beautifully evolved to survive their environment. So to some up, nearly everything is harmful to humans, so if jinns are real, they would be made of everything. An if they did exist why can't we see them if they where made of everything. ( now, before people rant, of course not every single atom or cell is harmful but many things harbour nasty germs, parasites and other baddies.
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    (Original post by wrnicholls)
    But energy doesn't form a seemingly conscious being that floats around being sometimes invisible/visible in the shape of the person it would've come from.
    How can you be so sure of it?

    However the energy is transferred to decomposers etc.
    Is all the energy transferred to decomposers?
    I think, it's unlikely. But only my two cents. No scientific proof.

    If energy all ended up in ghosts, the energy cycle would deplete. Other animals would also have to have ghosts, so further reducing the energy moving round the cycle.
    Hm, interesting. Are you thinking the same as me here, it brings us to the whole cycle of reincarnation, perhaps?
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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    Its a basic concept of man not being able to bear fire and heat. If we can't stand it, means we're obviously not made of it but something the complete opposite, and since they are made of it (and can bear it) they are the opposite to us. And we clearly are not made of rays.

    Well because if they can harm us for example by possessions, then they clearly can see what they're doing. Or even for example magicians, they "control" Jinns by ordering them to go and harm other people, and they agree to it if the magician performs a ritual but thats a whole different matter. What i'm trying to say is if they can harm us they can obviously see us, whereas we can't harm them because they're hidden. We probably could but we'd need to go through steps to reach them whereas they just need to enter our bodies.

    How would you explain possessions?

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    Jinns are not all harmful. They do not all try to harm us. Some people have Jinns as friends, the kind of normal friendship you will find among humans. I think recognizing them as our "opposites" is a bit far-fetched.

    I only think of them as one of the millions of species on Earth. We can't see bacteria with the naked eye, so without the proper apparatus to determine their presence, we wouldn't believe in their existence.

    Anyway, I was just curiously googling. Stumbled on these two articles:

    - http://www.speed-light.info/miracles...en_heavens.htm
    - http://ufoinfo.com/news/FSR_scientific.shtml

    I found one point interesting. It is mentioned in the first article that Jinns are not visible, but they have weight. Perhaps, that could lead to some extended scientific research?
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    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    I don't understand how people can believe in all this paranormal stuff. It just seems so... silly to me

    Sure, kids believe in santa and monsters under the bed but haven't we grown up a bit by our age?

    I suppose its inherent in your beliefs to automatically be baffled and confused by people who believe the complete opposite and assume they are being really stupid because well it's obvious isn't it?

    I try to keep an open mind (ie respect other people beliefs) but it isn't half difficult. My wife is dubiously agnostic about 'paranormal' stuff and the one time we talked about it its been the worst argument we've ever had (not bad mind)...

    But no. I don't believe in faeries, ghosts, 'energy' (whatever unmeasurable energy that may be). I don't believe humans are so superbly special that they have a magic new undiscovered element/phenomena of physics solely orientated about them (setting an arbitrary value of 'life' or 'intelligence' or 'conciousness' in the universe) to carry on the interactions of the cells in their brain after those cells have stopped working.

    I believe that to be whimsical nonsense and the primary reason people do believe it because you really don't want to die when you die (or really don't want your mum/dad/brother/friend/OH to not exist anymore) which saddens me.

    I do venomously hate the industry surrounding it (contacting the dead physics etc), as I view them as taking advantage of vulnerable people who have just lost someone they love. I dislike similar things in religion: I once got asked 'if i was interested in learning about christ' in the street - fine - when I said no they asked if I knew anyone who had 'lost someone recently, as they might be interested' etc. I thought it was pretty disgusting but at least they aren't doing it for profit (more likely they are actually trying to help people by teaching them about Christ)

    /rant
    I might venture you don't even believe in the Homo heidelbergensis.

    People don't believe in Santa Claus-- generally-- because they know it's a lie they've invented themselves.

    If the Jinn phenomenon was less based on observation and more of a Santa Claus story, perhaps I wouldn't believe it either.
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    (Original post by wrnicholls)
    Do people just not understand science and what is possible and what is impossible?

    To say ghosts exist is ridiculous. They don't, and cannot. You die and that's it. Gone. Poof.
    (Original post by wrnicholls)
    But going the speed of light is something that could be achieved by building say a very fast rocket. I don't know the physics of that.

    But paranormal phenomena imply that someones "soul" is released from the body and carries on living mostly invisible. Impossible.

    Actually, you're being extremely unscientific. You've completely denied the possibility for something based on personal beliefs, that's not scientific that's religious. So get off your high horse.

    The possibility for the soul was actually measured by Duncan MacDougall. Whilst the experiment has never been repeated due to a combination of ethical implications and academic restrictions, I always find it amusing that people are willing to discount the soul in the name of science, when in reality it's based on their own beliefs or misconceptions about biology.

    Personally, I don't believe in the soul. But I'm well aware that we're very limited in our instruments of measurement and am not going to close my mind to the possibility of future scientific advances.

    I don't believe in Jinn because I feel there would have been a far greater impact from them in world history rather than a particular region of the world, and there are alot of sociological projections on to them that fit as a construction. I'd be convinced through recorded interactions with one and finding isolated reflective accounts.
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    (Original post by Alpha510)
    I might venture you don't even believe in the Homo heidelbergensis.

    People don't believe in Santa Claus-- generally-- because they know it's a lie they've invented themselves.

    If the Jinn phenomenon was less based on observation and more of a Santa Claus story, perhaps I wouldn't believe it either.
    Santa is a bit of a bad example because its an active deception. But it is based on observation (cookies/carrots disappearing and presents appearing labelled from santa).

    Did you invent it and know it was a lie when you were a child? I didn't, I was told it, and made the above observations. Most children believe it until a certain age, where more likely than not their parents tell them the truth, or other children who got told the truth tell them.

    What observations have you made of Jinn? (Just out of curiosity - I don't think you will be able to persuade me they exist even if you saw one dancing in front of you)

    Personally I think most ghost (and like phenomena) are just humans being human. We have evolved to get paranoid (so we don't get eaten by predators) and our senses are not really that reliable (hell, we have hallucinogenic like experiences most nights when we go to sleep).

    There is also the fact that there is no photogenic evidence for any of this stuff other than some easily hoaxed blurry over-exposed grainy photo-shop jobs. It is all subjective and 'flawed' human experiences.

    PS: What has Homo heidelbergensis got to do with anything? I looked it up, why would I not 'believe' in an early ancestor to humans?
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    (Original post by Alpha510)
    No scientific proof.
    This sums up this entire thread.
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    I can't believe in something that can't be scientifically proven!
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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    Well it's mentioned in my religion, but having witnessed exorcisms and having read true accounts of incidents where Jinn have been used by humans, (e.g. to carry out black magic which usually results in possession of a body) tells me it's definitely real.

    It makes sense because they are almost the complete opposite of us, so it's like we fill up the whole of Earth, practical hey.

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    im guessing your muslim?


    (Original post by wrnicholls)
    Do people just not understand science and what is possible and what is impossible?

    To say ghosts exist is ridiculous. They don't, and cannot. You die and that's it. Gone. Poof.


    This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
    I know its a cop out answer but science does not understand everything - yet. There have been scientific studies into the supernatural in particular ghost and poltergiest activity and its results have always been open for debate both for an against. There are hundreds of thousands of stories of ghosts spirits etc out there even into modern day. Can everyone be explained away by air pressure, leaky pipes, imagination, hallucinations etc etc etc?
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    If ghosts do exist then why is there no caveman ghosts?
 
 
 
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