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    (Original post by AlexandrTheGreat)
    MI5 doesn't work how you seem to think it works. Unless you're alleging some incredible conspiracy that corrupted half the polling booths and scrutineers in the country. And the existence of a massive, undisclosed section of MI5 that would be needed to direct the efforts of tens of thousands of secret, undercover officers in electoral positions.
    I'm sure a national clandestine operation could easily have been managed at that time - most of the toadies in the media were in the pay of the Tories one way or another and the returning officers were mostly civil servants in those days who had all sworn on the official secrets act and would comply with instructions. They would have circulated propaganda, for example, alleged that Kinnock was a Soviet agent, or something along those lines.

    I'm sure it will all come out one day - Major was just a tool.
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    (Original post by AlexandrTheGreat)
    You already have the major parliamentary division between the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives (both of which are centre-right parties).
    I lost interest after you said this......

    Sorry pal but you don't know a thing when you call Lib Dems centre-right
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I'm sure it will all come out one day - Major was just a tool.
    He could have been a bigger tool- he could have believed in socialism!
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    (Original post by AlexandrTheGreat)
    I would submit that this is a great misunderstanding of modern politics, based on the fact that people associated their stance in favour of civil liberties and tuition fees. I see nothing in their policies that would identify them as in any way centre-left.

    They are, after all, a liberal party, not a labour or a socialist party. And their political philosophy is shown by their actions; Vince Cable's increase in the unfair dismissal continuity of service requirement from one year to two years is a perfect example, and that's from someone who people seem to believe is on the left of the party.

    I suspect that many young people in the 2000s just assumed they must have been a left-wing alternative to Labour, when in fact they are derived from the right-wing SDP exodus from Labour and the old Liberal Party.

    I know a lot of people were duped, but the fact is that anyone who knew and understood the history of the Lib Dem party, or who has read the Orange Book, could have entirely foreseen what happened.
    The Lib Dems are more left-wing than Labour! They are the "supposedly" educated ones who read the Guardian and know exactly what socialism is- as opposed to the IQ-of-50 persons who vote for Labour because "t'is the thing to do oop north".
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    (Original post by AlexandrTheGreat)
    I give Cameron credit for his courageous stand against the neanderthals in hi party on gay marriage, but that's about it. On workers rights, on privatisation, etc it's the same old Nasty Party

    Blair may have despised them, but the '97-2010 period saw major increases in workers rights, discrimination legislation protecting people in the workplace, the minimum wage, and the like.

    Equally, the unions' man, Ed Milliband, routed his neoliberal, Blairite brother in the leadership contest. So why exactly is it not a party for the unions?

    The other point I'd make is that centre-left people understand the importance of a united front, and this will become apparent as Labour wins in 2015 only one cycle after losing government, and the Tory party tears itself apart.
    You seem to be equating your own personal views with a party's electoral success. You may be in favour of gay marriage, but nearly half of people in this country aren't and it's not a policy that most people take into account when deciding who to vote for.

    Labour will win a majority in 2015, it's hard to say what will happen after that though. The decline of Tory popularity since 2010 has less to do with in-fighting and more to do with completely useless policies that make cuts in spending without lowering taxes to match, and having no coherent plan for growth whatsoever.

    The Tories need to move over to the right post-2015 because it would win more votes than it would lose. Cameron seems desperate to attract socially liberal voters but why on earth would they vote Tory when there's a Labour party that appeals to them more overall (and the Lib Dems too?). Gay marriage won zero new support for Cameron and lost him plenty of his traditional supporters to UKIP.
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    Nick Davies, writing in 1994. (He's still a journalist, he broke the Milly Dowler / phone hacking story.)
    http://www.nickdavies.net/1994/10/01...e-an-election/

    He explains how, all over the country, Conservative election agents were accused of messing with postal and proxy votes in marginal constituencies and how cases brought to court were dismissed by Tory magistrates.
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    what a hyperbole :facepalm2:

    they're been in power for the past 3 years you dimwit, the vast majority of policies implemented by this government are tory ones
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    During the election night, when the result was still far from clear, he said to camera, in a knowing voice, "I know we're going to win".

    Every exit poll and pre-election survey had him losing, especially in key marginals. There was an alleged 'late surge' of Tories in those marginals on the night.

    Just makes one wonder - is the count in this country always quite as clean, fair and untroubled as one hopes? Or do Florida things happen here sometimes? Surely that nice Mr Major wouldn't have stooped to using the MI5 his government had controlled since 1979 to serve their interests, would they?? Would they?
    And here it begins, the slow but steady descent into madness.
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    (Original post by AlexandrTheGreat)
    There was no such rally in Sheffield the night before the 1992 election.
    Ok, the point still stands. Kinnock thought he was going to win before a single vote was counted. He had a rally and said 'We're all right, we're all right..'
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Nick Davies, writing in 1994. (He's still a journalist, he broke the Milly Dowler / phone hacking story.)
    http://www.nickdavies.net/1994/10/01...e-an-election/

    He explains how, all over the country, Conservative election agents were accused of messing with postal and proxy votes in marginal constituencies and how cases brought to court were dismissed by Tory magistrates.
    More nonsense conspiracy theories. There is no way you could organise voter fraud on a national scale and get away with it.

    Besides, if you actually read the article, the journalist is not accusing the Tories of fixing the 1992 general election. He is making a handful of accusations with regards to local council elections (not elections to Westminster).

    The only mention of any possible general election voter fraud comes at the end of the article, where the journalist makes reference to a fictional (the journalist actually uses that word) book fantasising about how the Tories may have fixed the 1992 election.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    More nonsense conspiracy theories. There is no way you could organise voter fraud on a national scale and get away with it.

    Besides, if you actually read the article, the journalist is not accusing the Tories of fixing the 1992 general election. He is making a handful of accusations with regards to local council elections (not elections to Westminster).

    The only mention of any possible general election voter fraud comes at the end of the article, where the journalist makes reference to a fictional (the journalist actually uses that word) book fantasising about how the Tories may have fixed the 1992 election.
    It's highly indicative that Tory officials were not against election manipulation and fraud. Contrary to the nice, rosy picture we all have of fair British elections.

    I don't know if the '92 election was rigged, I'm just saying it's suspicious, not least because of the way Major spoke about it, but also because of many other factors, including the suspicious late surge in key marginals.
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    (Original post by AlexandrTheGreat)
    Incredible then that they've seen such a precipitous decline since, and that even after 13 years of Labour government, they couldn't win an outright majority.
    Only because of constituency boundaries favour Labour to the tune of about twenty seats. Let's not forget that the Tories got more votes in 2010 than Labour got in 2005.
    Imagine if the Tories had such an advantage, it would be headline news on the BBC and you'd get the left foaming at the mouth about such an affront to democracy.
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    I believe Sir John Major led them to victory in 1992.
    I believe John Major became Sir John in 2005.


    Jesus but there's fun to be had with "I believe..." isn't there though?
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    The tories haven't won an election since 1992 because they had won the argument. Tony Blair was just Thatcherism with a smiley face, and he pushed the tories so far to the right that there was pretty much nowhere else they could go except for Howards 2005 disaster.

    Granted, the Tories lost in 2010, but that was because they had the worst campaign in modern political history which just happened to coincide with the rise of Nick Clegg as a political force, which split the focus of the election period. Plus, Cameron was still bound by all the stupid stuff he had to promise to become party leader like inheritance tax, which cost him lots of votes in the general election but played well in tory strongholds.

    A competent Tory leader leading a competant campaign would easily beat Ed Milliband and anyone else in Labour's front bench. The problem is that the tories either believe their leader is incompetent or that the person leading the campaign (Crossby/Osbourne) is a moron.
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    (Original post by The Gentle Giant)
    Granted, the Tories lost in 2010,
    No, they won the election, they simply didn't get a majority of seats.
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    (Original post by AlexandrTheGreat)
    A typo of sorts; the point remains, they haven't won an election for 22 years.

    Somehow, I don't think that John Major's election win will do much for the Tories of the 2010s.
    No, but it would be good for you to check your facts.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    the media were in the pay of the Tories one way or another and the returning officers were mostly civil servants in those days who had all sworn on the official secrets act
    Two points: (a) returning officers are (and were) nearly always local government officers, not civil servants and (b) obligations under the Official Secrets Act apply to everyone; signing it (contrary to the common belief) is not a condition for being bound by it and there is no such process as swearing on it.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Two points: (a) returning officers are (and were) nearly always local government officers, not civil servants and (b) obligations under the Official Secrets Act apply to everyone; signing it (contrary to the common belief) is not a condition for being bound by it and there is no such process as swearing on it.
    A lot of them are former civil servants (especially in Counties and especially in those days, when many were also High Sheriffs) who have previously signed the OSA - it's binding for life. Not sure what you mean about the other part, signing the OSA has always been taken to mean you are bound by it.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    During the election night, when the result was still far from clear, he said to camera, in a knowing voice, "I know we're going to win".

    Every exit poll and pre-election survey had him losing, especially in key marginals. There was an alleged 'late surge' of Tories in those marginals on the night.

    Just makes one wonder - is the count in this country always quite as clean, fair and untroubled as one hopes? Or do Florida things happen here sometimes? Surely that nice Mr Major wouldn't have stooped to using the MI5 his government had controlled since 1979 to serve their interests, would they?? Would they?
    You do love a good conspiracy.
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    (Original post by alexh42)
    You do love a good conspiracy.
    Not really, I like seeing where the facts are not exactly credible and raising issues for closer examination. My opinion is that the '92 election deserves closer examination, not least because all of the polls beforehand showed Major well behind and because of his own comment on the night.
 
 
 
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