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    Animals do not have human rationality. The puppy doesn't know peeing in the house is bad, so it doesn't understand why it's being hit. What your Dad is doing is just causing pain, fear and stress for the dog.
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    (Original post by Rooster523)
    Becoming part of the 21st century? Tapping a puppy on the nose is perfectly acceptable, as is grabbing it by the scruff of its neck?!

    Source: Parents both police dog handlers, Dad police dog instructor
    Source says it all. How is that acceptable? Scientific evidence shows that reward based methods are FAR better than physical manipulation.

    Turn off the TV, Cesar Milan is no hero to any dog.

    For the record there are police dog handlers who do not resort to these methods. Some people however need an ego boost, and presume that hitting an animal gives them the dominant status they never had, despite being a totally different species to them.
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    (Original post by Pawsies)
    Source says it all. How is that acceptable? Scientific evidence shows that reward based methods are FAR better than physical manipulation.

    Turn off the TV, Cesar Milan is no hero to any dog.

    For the record there are police dog handlers who do not resort to these methods. Some people however need an ego boost, and presume that hitting an animal gives them the dominant status they never had, despite being a totally different species to them.
    There is a massive difference between an aggressive hit and a tap. You're massively extrapolating a small anecdote.

    Edit: And at what point did I suggest that our dogs' good behaviour was never rewarded? How does a rewards only based learning model work? I'm absolutely 100% for rewarding good behaviour but I'm absolutely 100% against not punishing bad behaviour. Animals, humans included, require discipline. All carrot and no stick is, in my opinion, a weak learning model.

    For the record, I do not condone violence towards animals, like I said- big difference between hitting and tapping.
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    (Original post by insignificant)
    My dad thinks hitting the puppy on the nose and slamming a ball on string infront of him is the way to teach him not to wee in the house. My dad has some learning difficulties so I don't know how to teach him it's wrong. I've tried telling him that by doing that he will think its wrong to wee full stop, but he just doesn't get it and thinks I know nothing about dogs and that he knows everything.
    Disciplining a puppy isn't necessarily a bad thing, but has to be done properly.

    What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that if you reward or punish a dog for their actions, you have to do so immediately after they have done them. If you leave it for a while then they don't associate your action with theirs, they just think you are doing what you're doing for no reason.

    With all of our dogs we would give them a biscuit right after they went to the toilet outside, or if we caught them going to the toilet inside they got a sharp tap on the nose, not hard enough to really hurt them but hard enough to make sure they knew they had done something naughty, and with all four of them they were perfectly toilet trained pretty quickly.
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    I used to tap my dog on the nose when he was naughty, but only if I caught him doing it (like chewing a shoe or biting me). But to stop him weeing, you just pick him up and put him in the garden. If you pick a puppy up it stops peeing so he won't pee whilst you carry him to the garden.

    There is only so much you can do by rewarding them. For example, if you want to teach it not to bark in the garden then you can't give them a biscuit when they aren't barking. Similarly you can't do it for biting, otherwise they would get a treat all the time they aren't biting.
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    (Original post by Pawsies)
    When do you plan on becoming part of the 21st century?

    It is never acceptable to hit an animal, no matter how hard. Pup needs to be supervised and taken out every 30 minutes to prevent accidents.

    You cannot blame a pup for your mistake.
    Yes, I'm a monster, for not hurting my dog. How terrible of me.

    I better not stroke or rub it's tummy either.
    How dare I signal to my puppy that it's done something wrong when it's done something wrong.

    Are you done with hyperbole
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    (Original post by Pawsies)
    Source says it all. How is that acceptable? Scientific evidence shows that reward based methods are FAR better than physical manipulation.

    Turn off the TV, Cesar Milan is no hero to any dog.

    For the record there are police dog handlers who do not resort to these methods. Some people however need an ego boost, and presume that hitting an animal gives them the dominant status they never had, despite being a totally different species to them.
    Erm. I am dominant over the dog.
    As a result I don't let my dog pull me around. I don't let me dog eat from my plate. I don't let me dog take my drink. Otherwise the dog would be dominant. Sometimes it's between his wants and my wants. I'm the one who makes the decision over what happens. If he wants to play and I'm not in the mood we don't play. If he does and I am we do play.



    Do I get a power trip over it? Well of course, because I need that in life. I mean I get bullied in the whole of my life. This is me getting my own back. I also make my dog write lines.

    :awesome: .
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    (Original post by officelinebacker)
    Disciplining a puppy isn't necessarily a bad thing, but has to be done properly.

    What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that if you reward or punish a dog for their actions, you have to do so immediately after they have done them. If you leave it for a while then they don't associate your action with theirs, they just think you are doing what you're doing for no reason.

    With all of our dogs we would give them a biscuit right after they went to the toilet outside, or if we caught them going to the toilet inside they got a sharp tap on the nose, not hard enough to really hurt them but hard enough to make sure they knew they had done something naughty, and with all four of them they were perfectly toilet trained pretty quickly.
    Exactly, that's the exact same as what we did. He was house trained when he was 4 months old. We got him when he was 2 months.
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    Both dogs I had had just kinda figured they shouldn't pee in house. So did the cats. On occasion they needed to go when nobody was in they'd do it upstairs in front of the toilet. Your dog is stupid.
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    (Original post by insignificant)
    My dad thinks hitting the puppy on the nose and slamming a ball on string infront of him is the way to teach him not to wee in the house. My dad has some learning difficulties so I don't know how to teach him it's wrong. I've tried telling him that by doing that he will think its wrong to wee full stop, but he just doesn't get it and thinks I know nothing about dogs and that he knows everything.
    Oh no! Poor puppy

    Have you looked into doing a few puppy training classes? You could talk to the trainer about the issue and they could explain to your Dad why he shouldn't ever hit the puppy. Maybe it would have more of an impact, coming from a professional. Alternatively you could try talking to the vet - they might then be able to talk to him about proper house-training.

    Another way would be to show your Dad dog forums which talk about house-training and how to do it properly, so he knows you do actually know what you're talking about. You could always try to dazzle him with a bit of science and talk about how positive reinforcement is proven far more effective than negative reinforcement in animals - maybe that would impress him and he'd pipe down a bit?

    Also worth mentioning that the absolute worst punishment for dogs is to be ignored. They are very sociable animals (especially when they're young and playful), so if he DOES wee inside, don't say anything, just carry him outside silently and pop him on the grass. Leave him there for a couple of minutes (3-4. If he doesn't perform, don't continue to ignore him after you let him), if you spot him weeing in the garden run outside and act as though you've just won big on the lottery, run around, play with him, give him treats, talk really excitedly to him, etc (clicker training is also really really really useful for house-training). Ignoring bad behaviour doesn't mean that you are letting him get away with it, it means he'll learn to behave in a way that gets a reaction - a good reaction.

    You haven't mentioned in your post what sort of difficulties your Dad has so I'm not sure which one of these would work best and which one would ram the lesson home best. Maybe you could make it simpler and ask him how he'd feel in the puppy's position? Explain he's being punished and he doesn't understand why, and that by praising him for the good things and ignoring the bad you are FAR more likely to develop a good relationship and a well-adjusted pet. Also say that by hitting him etc the puppy might end up being frightened of him - something I'm sure he doesn't want!

    We used all those methods with our (second) puppy (as well as clicker training which I HIGHLY recommend and also crate training), and he learnt very fast. Within about a fortnight he had got the hang of it, and he only had a handful of accidents after that. One major trick is to watch his every move, especially after eating / drinking, then pounce on him like a ninja as soon as you see him sniffing or circling!

    Hope this helps, and hope you get it sorted!




    EDIT: I noticed people are debating whether or not it's ever acceptable to punish a dog. I just want to make it clear - yes, but not when they're a puppy being house-trained. Shouting or hitting a puppy who doesn't understand that they need to wee outside will not help at all.

    If however your puppy bites someone, a quick tap with your finger on the nose (enough to surprise them, NOT hurt them) and a sharp, loud "No!" will do the trick just fine. Those actions should take 3, 4 seconds. A quick, sharp shock. After you've said no, walk out of the room and shut the door, for 2-3 minutes. Then reward them when you see them playing gently. In cases like biting, ignoring isn't as good a method. You need something that will shock them and make them think twice, whereas house-training is a learning process that always takes a bit of time.
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    tapping them on the nose is actually a good way of training a dog, but not full on hitting it hard as its a sensitive part of the dogs body.

    for those who say taking it out everytime, dont pick it up! tap it on the nose and tell it to go outside. this way it realises its done wrong and knows to go outside. it wont work straight away but after a while it gets the idea.

    If you dont you'll end up with an unruly dog and not just for peeing in the house
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    You pick the puppy up mid poo or pee and take him or her outside. You then need to make the association between a word and the dog going out to use the toilet. You also need to make a HUGE fuss in a high pitched voice when they actually decide to go outside.

    For example if I say WEE WEE my dogs will perk up and run towards the back door.

    There is no point in hitting the dog as it will teach it very little, I find throwing a small amount of cold water over a dog to be considerably more effective than hitting it. BUT YOU SHOULD NOT HIT A PUPPY FOR MESSING INSIDE.

    If you would like me to come round and teach your dad not to hit the dog by hitting him then please feel free to get in touch.
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    (Original post by emilie18)
    Oh no! Poor puppy

    Have you looked into doing a few puppy training classes? You could talk to the trainer about the issue and they could explain to your Dad why he shouldn't ever hit the puppy. Maybe it would have more of an impact, coming from a professional. Alternatively you could try talking to the vet - they might then be able to talk to him about proper house-training.

    Another way would be to show your Dad dog forums which talk about house-training and how to do it properly, so he knows you do actually know what you're talking about. You could always try to dazzle him with a bit of science and talk about how positive reinforcement is proven far more effective than negative reinforcement in animals - maybe that would impress him and he'd pipe down a bit?

    Also worth mentioning that the absolute worst punishment for dogs is to be ignored. They are very sociable animals (especially when they're young and playful), so if he DOES wee inside, don't say anything, just carry him outside silently and pop him on the grass. Leave him there for a couple of minutes (3-4. If he doesn't perform, don't continue to ignore him after you let him), if you spot him weeing in the garden run outside and act as though you've just won big on the lottery, run around, play with him, give him treats, talk really excitedly to him, etc (clicker training is also really really really useful for house-training). Ignoring bad behaviour doesn't mean that you are letting him get away with it, it means he'll learn to behave in a way that gets a reaction - a good reaction.

    You haven't mentioned in your post what sort of difficulties your Dad has so I'm not sure which one of these would work best and which one would ram the lesson home best. Maybe you could make it simpler and ask him how he'd feel in the puppy's position? Explain he's being punished and he doesn't understand why, and that by praising him for the good things and ignoring the bad you are FAR more likely to develop a good relationship and a well-adjusted pet. Also say that by hitting him etc the puppy might end up being frightened of him - something I'm sure he doesn't want!

    We used all those methods with our (second) puppy (as well as clicker training which I HIGHLY recommend and also crate training), and he learnt very fast. Within about a fortnight he had got the hang of it, and he only had a handful of accidents after that. One major trick is to watch his every move, especially after eating / drinking, then pounce on him like a ninja as soon as you see him sniffing or circling!

    Hope this helps, and hope you get it sorted!




    EDIT: I noticed people are debating whether or not it's ever acceptable to punish a dog. I just want to make it clear - yes, but not when they're a puppy being house-trained. Shouting or hitting a puppy who doesn't understand that they need to wee outside will not help at all.

    If however your puppy bites someone, a quick tap with your finger on the nose (enough to surprise them, NOT hurt them) and a sharp, loud "No!" will do the trick just fine. Those actions should take 3, 4 seconds. A quick, sharp shock. After you've said no, walk out of the room and shut the door, for 2-3 minutes. Then reward them when you see them playing gently. In cases like biting, ignoring isn't as good a method. You need something that will shock them and make them think twice, whereas house-training is a learning process that always takes a bit of time.
    Thanks for this reply! My dad has something called right temporal lobe sclerosis epilepsy, which means that he has deep scarred tissue deep inside his brain which causes seizures, short term memory problems, and problems with his emotions, ie he has a short patience span. He also has several other problems including severe dyslexia, so he can't read or write. It takes a long time for me to explain things to him, so he prefers to go by what he was taught as a child following his dads example, who was in the army and very regimented and strict so not the best example...

    After reading some of these comments, I'm sorry I should have explained more about my dads condition. I would say its hard to define between what is a tap, and what is a hit. Sometimes its very clear that he taps him on the nose, but when my dad can't process things and cant be patient, its a very swift tap.

    I can tell the dog is confused because I can see he is making moves to tell us he needs to go, like going near the door, but its hard sometimes because he moves to the door literally every 5 minutes and a lot of the time we think he needs to go out but then he will escape whatever barrier we have put so he can't go upstairs and goes upstairs.

    He's 14 weeks old so we take him out every hour and take him to the spot we want him to go in. But as soon as we come back inside, he goes and wees/poos. Whenever he does go outside though we do praise him to high heaven, but its just hard, when my mum and dad were at hospital for my dad today for 2 hours, he pee'd 6 times and poo'd once. He tried pooing at about 7am s my mum picked him up and took him outside, she walked around with him and took him to his spot for over an hour, didnt do anything, and then came inside and poo'd. How do I help to correct this?
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Yes, I'm a monster, for not hurting my dog. How terrible of me.

    I better not stroke or rub it's tummy either.
    How dare I signal to my puppy that it's done something wrong when it's done something wrong.

    Are you done with hyperbole
    Lol. How can you not see that a tap is hurting your dog? Of course it is. A dog's nose is so much more sensitive than ours.

    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Erm. I am dominant over the dog.
    As a result I don't let my dog pull me around. I don't let me dog eat from my plate. I don't let me dog take my drink. Otherwise the dog would be dominant. Sometimes it's between his wants and my wants. I'm the one who makes the decision over what happens. If he wants to play and I'm not in the mood we don't play. If he does and I am we do play.



    Do I get a power trip over it? Well of course, because I need that in life. I mean I get bullied in the whole of my life. This is me getting my own back. I also make my dog write lines.

    :awesome: .
    I did NOT say being dominant is a good thing. It is totally outdated and unnecessary and do dogs really think we are dogs? Hrmmm.

    Dog and wolf behaviour is miles different and researchers have only realised this in the last decade. Modern research suggests that dominance theory and forceful training are less effective (dominance is ineffective as it doesn't mean anything other than you are a big bully!) than reward based training.

    Your dog must have a great life where he has to guess what you want from him. You have to walk through doors first? Why? Oh I forgot. Doors do exist in the wild! You do realise you eating off your plate is miles different from him eating out of his bowl, which is on the floor and a different shape to your plate. Why not make him a resource guarder? :rolleyes:
    Pulling is fine, but not to show your dominance. Not letting a dog pull is purely basic manners.

    I see some things have been selectively left out. Wolves commonly urinate around their territory, have you done that yet?

    http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7...d=0CI4BEOgBMAk

    http://www.petexpertise.com/why-positive-training.html
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    (Original post by Rooster523)
    There is a massive difference between an aggressive hit and a tap. You're massively extrapolating a small anecdote.

    Edit: And at what point did I suggest that our dogs' good behaviour was never rewarded? How does a rewards only based learning model work? I'm absolutely 100% for rewarding good behaviour but I'm absolutely 100% against not punishing bad behaviour. Animals, humans included, require discipline. All carrot and no stick is, in my opinion, a weak learning model.

    For the record, I do not condone violence towards animals, like I said- big difference between hitting and tapping.
    I never said reward based training only. Punishment is necessary as part of learning theory but it needs to be appropriate. Negative punishment is far more effective than positive punishment as you remove what the animal wants to decrease the behaviour. If your dog wants attention then you would withhold it until it stops begging or whatever.
    As I said above, a nose is incredibly sensitive and is probably the worst place to hit a dog.

    http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...P=A&A=2164&S=1

    http://dogscholar.com/rubbing-your-d...owner-and-pet/
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    A little smack on the nose is fine, seriously

    As long as he isn't beating it or leaving it in a lot of pain

    just a little smack like one you would give a child is fine

    Although anything more is cruel and would tell your dad to wise the **** up
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    Why would you want to hit a puppy anyway?



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    is he full on punching the puppy or just tapping his nose?

    awww i miss the days my wee doggy was a puppy :cry: <3
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    (Original post by insignificant)
    Thanks for this reply! My dad has something called right temporal lobe sclerosis epilepsy, which means that he has deep scarred tissue deep inside his brain which causes seizures, short term memory problems, and problems with his emotions, ie he has a short patience span. He also has several other problems including severe dyslexia, so he can't read or write. It takes a long time for me to explain things to him, so he prefers to go by what he was taught as a child following his dads example, who was in the army and very regimented and strict so not the best example...

    After reading some of these comments, I'm sorry I should have explained more about my dads condition. I would say its hard to define between what is a tap, and what is a hit. Sometimes its very clear that he taps him on the nose, but when my dad can't process things and cant be patient, its a very swift tap.
    No problem

    Ah OK I see, yeah I wasn't sure from your post so I wasn't sure if my advice would be appropriate or not! I guess just try and stay calm and keep nagging at him, hopefully he'll change his habits if only to keep you off his back, if you see what I mean.

    Bless him he does sound a bit confused! But to be fair house-training is really hard, not just for the puppy but for their owners too. The main thing is to be persistent and consistent. If he's getting mixed messages then it'll just prolong the process and make it more difficult on everybody.

    A small tap is fine, but NOT when you're house-training. Puppies cannot understand what that means, and they'll interpret it as "don't let me see you weeing" which is obviously different from "wee outside please!". A quick tap is ideal in situations where the behaviour needs stopping instantly, e.g. if he bites a child while he's playing and doesn't realise that it's not OK to do that.

    (Original post by insignificant)
    I can tell the dog is confused because I can see he is making moves to tell us he needs to go, like going near the door, but its hard sometimes because he moves to the door literally every 5 minutes and a lot of the time we think he needs to go out but then he will escape whatever barrier we have put so he can't go upstairs and goes upstairs.
    You need to just watch him really carefully - he might be moving to the door to look outside, or smell the interesting smells around the door or whatever. The times you need to be really really observant or take him outside: when he starts sniffing or circling, 5 or 10 mins after eating or drinking, and once for 5 or so minutes in any hour when he's not been out. It's tiring and annoying but persistence pays off.
    He's also probably learnt that when he moves to the door, you'll jump up, so he might be doing it to get that reaction!

    (Original post by insignificant)
    He's 14 weeks old so we take him out every hour and take him to the spot we want him to go in. But as soon as we come back inside, he goes and wees/poos. Whenever he does go outside though we do praise him to high heaven, but its just hard, when my mum and dad were at hospital for my dad today for 2 hours, he pee'd 6 times and poo'd once. He tried pooing at about 7am s my mum picked him up and took him outside, she walked around with him and took him to his spot for over an hour, didnt do anything, and then came inside and poo'd. How do I help to correct this?
    Aww I love puppies at that age. So cute and fluffy!

    Were you watching him over those 2 hours? Or was he on his own? If he has to stay on his own for a little while sometimes, close him off in a cosy corner full of bedding and so on. Puppies will do everything they can to avoid weeing in their crate or sleeping space, so this technique can really help when you're house training.

    Hmm - the bit in bold. So basically, your puppy showed signs of wanting to poop, and then he was taken outside with your mum for an hour, walking around etc, presumably she talked to him a bit too, to try and be encouraging. In your puppy's head: awesome, I do THAT and I get an hour with mum strolling round the garden!
    Instead, when he looks like he's about to go, take him outside, pop him on the spot, wait in the doorway for a couple of minutes, don't react unless he poops or starts sniffing/circling in, you know, that way that means he's about to do something. Otherwise he's being rewarded for trying to poop inside with a whole hour with someone. If he does nothing, let him walk back inside and just repeat until he DOES poop outside, then go crazy and cheer and give him treats and all that (STRAIGHT AWAY).

    That's what I would do - could be worth a try.

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    Actually what your dad is doing is a popular way people used to condition their dogs to behave in certain ways.

    It does work, but it's cruel.
 
 
 
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