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    What a stupid thread.


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    Some people just are the way they are, you can hardly fault them for that.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    So what is exactly the cause of something that is not a choice?
    There's a general backing behind either nature or nurture, or both.

    But if it's a choice, then I assume you think people choose to be straight as well?

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    (Original post by Scumbaggio)
    It would be difficult, I don't think it would be totally unreasonable to suggest that genes can make you more or less likely to conform to societies norms.

    I think you might be able to suggest people are more likely to to be different to the majority as a result of their genes but you can't suggest they're goths because of their genes.
    who says a person should conform to social norms?
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    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    There's a general backing behind either nature or nurture, or both.

    But if it's a choice, then I assume you think people choose to be straight as well?

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    Maybe, but you have to wonder why men have particular reproductive organs and females different. I just don't understand why some people aren't able to tolerate homosexuality as a choice and have to try and convince people that its genetic.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    Maybe, but you have to wonder why men have particular reproductive organs and females different. I just don't understand why some people aren't able to tolerate homosexuality as a choice and have to try and convince people that its genetic.
    I get your point, but that doesn't mean being gay is a choice (it isn't) it just means its not the norm

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    (Original post by yellowcopter)
    No because a goth can just change their clothes and gay people can't just make themselves attracted to the opposite sex.
    To play devil's advocate:

    A homosexual can just sleep with people of the opposite sex but goths can't just make themselves like normal clothes.

    Ok, I don't really think being gay and being a goth are that similar. But while you can choose your actions (including who you sleep with and what you wear), you can't directly choose what you like. Even when it comes to what you wear, I don't think you can really one day decide to start liking something. You can choose to expose yourself to situations and other people so that preference might develop, but you don't directly choose what you like. Although I think it's unlikely you could change your sexual orientation in that way.
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    A homosexual can just sleep with people of the opposite sex but goths can't just make themselves like normal clothes.
    Yes, but that's not the same as being attracted to the opposite sex

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    It's a way for people to express themselves. If we all thought in that way, then no one would be an individual but rather a part of a uniform society.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    You often hear the argument thrown about, that homosexuality cannot be a choice, as why would anyone wish to put themselves is such a position of stigmatisation and abuse.

    Can the argument not likewise be used for other minorities such as the goth subculture. Is it really reasonable to say that someone can genetically be a goth? That their DNA has lead them to wear the black clothes and white makeup that are the source of their marginalisation?
    Yes, there is a genetic component to becoming a goth. And yes, there are environmental components to becoming gay, which you could call "choice" - if you have a Sartrean philosophy.

    The black clothes and white make-up are an effect of their marginalisation. They are signifiers of the subculture they build to protect and support each other. Their personality is the ultimate cause of their marginalisation and that is constructed from genetics and environment.
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    Err probably because they like being a goth, tbh I don't care as long as they're not harming anyone for no reason, they are people too.
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    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    Yes, but that's not the same as being attracted to the opposite sex

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    No it's not, but the post I quoted wasn't comparing like for like.

    I'd say dressing like a goth is to being a goth as having sex with men is to being a homosexual man. The latter is a preference, and the former is an expression of that preference.

    Well I suppose that's not quite right, because you wouldn't say someone is a goth just because they want to dress like one. But the point is that saying someone should make life easier for themselves by not dressing like a goth would be like saying someone should make life easier for themselves by not having relationships with the same sex. They could do that, but they'd just be suppressing their preferences rather than really changing them.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    Who said there was anything wrong with it?
    Well they do look pretty odd...
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    (Original post by telephone)
    Can the same not be then said for homosexuals?
    In all seriousness though, being a homosexual is far less of a choice than being a goth.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    You often hear the argument thrown about, that homosexuality cannot be a choice, as why would anyone wish to put themselves is such a position of stigmatisation and abuse.

    Can the argument not likewise be used for other minorities such as the goth subculture. Is it really reasonable to say that someone can genetically be a goth? That their DNA has lead them to wear the black clothes and white makeup that are the source of their marginalisation?
    I think you'll find there'd be a hell of a lot more nurture than nature going on for a goth than a homosexual.


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    Why do 'chavs' choose to be 'chavs'?
    Why do girlie girls choose to dress the way they do?

    People dress in the way they think looks best. Could be influenced by music choice, their peers etc. The most important question is, who are we to judge them or slate them for flouting the 'norm' or try and pressure them to conform? It's out of order. Leave people to dress and appear as they want, we can't all be the same.

    And the comparison of gay people is different btw, people don't choose to be gay, nor do they do it for attention or a feeling of exclusivity..thats absurd.
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    To play devil's advocate:

    A homosexual can just sleep with people of the opposite sex but goths can't just make themselves like normal clothes.

    Ok, I don't really think being gay and being a goth are that similar. But while you can choose your actions (including who you sleep with and what you wear), you can't directly choose what you like. Even when it comes to what you wear, I don't think you can really one day decide to start liking something. You can choose to expose yourself to situations and other people so that preference might develop, but you don't directly choose what you like. Although I think it's unlikely you could change your sexual orientation in that way.
    I get where you're coming from. Goths can just change their looks but it just wont be right, and they won't feel right not being themselves.

    Hats down to you sir, you've shown me a whole other viewpoint.
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    (Original post by Laurenx123x)
    Why do 'chavs' choose to be 'chavs'?
    Why do girlie girls choose to dress the way they do?

    People dress in the way they think looks best. Could be influenced by music choice, their peers etc. The most important question is, who are we to judge them or slate them for flouting the 'norm' or try and pressure them to conform? It's out of order. Leave people to dress and appear as they want, we can't all be the same.

    And the comparison of gay people is different btw, people don't choose to be gay, nor do they do it for attention or a feeling of exclusivity..thats absurd.
    The argument for homosexuality being not being a choice isn't really any stronger than the argument that being part of any minority is genetic. It may only appear stronger because more reasearch has been conducted for it.

    There may be a point I have missed in this discussion however, and I apologise if that is the case. So I invite you to explain why,

    "the comparison of gay people is different"

    is actually different.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    The argument for homosexuality being not being a choice isn't really any stronger than the argument that being part of any minority is genetic. It may only appear stronger because more reasearch has been conducted for it.

    There may be a point I have missed in this discussion however, and I apologise if that is the case. So I invite you to explain why,

    "the comparison of gay people is different"

    is actually different.
    Because whether or not it's genetic, being gay isn't a choice

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    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    Because whether or not it's genetic, being gay isn't a choice

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    Could you please explain what it is then.
 
 
 
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