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B552 - Sustainable Cities (Listing) Bill 2013 watch

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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    Yeah large parts of it are bu, the fact that TSR rarely cares for such things aside, we can play about.
    So are we ignoring devolution - and the fact that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland might just wish to do things differently - or are we 'play[ing] about'?

    Yes I understand what II* does. I just don't particularly like its set up.
    So you create a bill which replicates the aims and intentions of the II* category without provision for its future and all we get as an explanation is - you don't like II*. Wonderful.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    So are we ignoring devolution - and the fact that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland might just wish to do things differently - or are we 'play[ing] about'?
    We could always just write an amendment saying that devolution can be ignored for the purposes of this house and solve all our problems :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by The Mad Dog)
    We could always just write an amendment saying that devolution can be ignored for the purposes of this house and solve all our problems :rolleyes:
    Like we do with the EU? Yes, that would be extremely productive for the people in this House who claim to be Unionists but who, in actual fact, couldn't care less about what happens outside the borders of England. However, it does make a mockery of the notion that we're supposed to be a parliament modeled on that which addresses the needs of the entire population of the United Kingdom.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Like we do with the EU? Yes, that would be extremely productive for the people in this House who claim to be Unionists but who, in actual fact, couldn't care less about what happens outside the borders of England. However, it does make a mockery of the notion that we're supposed to be a parliament modeled on that which addresses the needs of the entire population of the United Kingdom.
    Yes, like we do with the EU exactly. Why follow one union your a member of to the letter when we're happy to completely ignore another?
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    (Original post by The Mad Dog)
    Yes, like we do with the EU exactly. Why follow one union your a member of to the letter when we're happy to completely ignore another?
    I'm only going to go so far with you along this road, I hope you realise. The importance of having everyone who submits bills consider the potential differences across the parts of the United Kingdom is surely not equivalent to our ignoring the EU for practical reasons. I agree that both are a problem and I was never in favour of the canon amendment but it's one thing to ignore an administrative behemoth, it's quite another to ignore millions of the people who "elect" you.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    I'm only going to go so far with you along this road, I hope you realise. The importance of having everyone who submits bills consider the potential differences across the parts of the United Kingdom is surely not equivalent to our ignoring the EU for practical reasons. I agree that both are a problem and I was never in favour of the canon amendment but it's one thing to ignore an administrative behemoth, it's quite another to ignore millions of the people who "elect" you.
    Giving the oft-repeated reasons for ignoring the EU are the following which both apply to the devolved bodies:
    1. TSR can't interact with the EU to change our relationship or the legislation and as such we shouldn't be bound by it and has no equivelant on TSR.
    2. The EU passes lots of legislation that we don't wish to have to respect and allow to complicate our legislative process.

    It's just as sound practical reasoning for pretending devolution never happened as it is for pretending we aren't in the EU
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    So are we ignoring devolution - and the fact that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland might just wish to do things differently - or are we 'play[ing] about'?
    No. Although frankly we could and frequently do so don't have a hissy fit about it now. It's exactly the same as we treat the EU, the UN, everything else. But although I'm sorry I snapped earlier I'm not in the mood for you like this.
    So you create a bill which replicates the aims and intentions of the II* category without provision for its future and all we get as an explanation is - you don't like II*. Wonderful.
    Oh no that's just idle thoughts. As I have said we will consider resources for further reading. And I did point out to you some time ago that we are not, in fact, replicating II*.
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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    No. Although frankly we could and frequently do so don't have a hissy fit about it now. It's exactly the same as we treat the EU, the UN, everything else. But although I'm sorry I snapped earlier I'm not in the mood for you like this.
    It's not a hissy fit, it's simply that you're probably the most careful of all so when even you don't particularly care about the people who don't happen to live in England's boundaries, it is disheartening but yes, I have to admit, I was reacting to your having snapped. Took it a bit far? Probably.
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    (Original post by The Mad Dog)
    Giving the oft-repeated reasons for ignoring the EU are the following which both apply to the devolved bodies:
    1. TSR can't interact with the EU to change our relationship or the legislation and as such we shouldn't be bound by it and has no equivelant on TSR.
    2. The EU passes lots of legislation that we don't wish to have to respect and allow to complicate our legislative process.

    It's just as sound practical reasoning for pretending devolution never happened as it is for pretending we aren't in the EU
    Excepting for the quite obvious fact that, in the case of the devolved parliaments and assemblies, the Westminster Parliament is, at all times, sovereign. That's not the case for the EU. In this place, we could pass a bill which says there is no devolution and therefore all bills would have to take account of the differences inherent in this fast weakening union. I've said I agree with you, and I take the implicit point that it's through sheer laziness, but I think also that it's to cheapen the debate about how this place deals with the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to simply reduce it down to "the EU question".
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Excepting for the quite obvious fact that, in the case of the devolved parliaments and assemblies, the Westminster Parliament is, at all times, sovereign. That's not the case for the EU. In this place, we could pass a bill which says there is no devolution and therefore all bills would have to take account of the differences inherent in this fast weakening union. I've said I agree with you, and I take the implicit point that it's through sheer laziness, but I think also that it's to cheapen the debate about how this place deals with the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to simply reduce it down to "the EU question".
    I wasn't attempting to cheapen the debate at all, I was just trying to draw parallels. However one thing I will mention is while we are sovereign - do you really think that in real life Westminster could get away with saying they were going to force Scotland to charge for prescriptions and introduce £9,000 a year tuition fees?
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    (Original post by The Mad Dog)
    I wasn't attempting to cheapen the debate at all, I was just trying to draw parallels. However one thing I will mention is while we are sovereign - do you really think that in real life Westminster could get away with saying they were going to force Scotland to charge for prescriptions and introduce £9,000 a year tuition fees?
    Of course not: because Westminster (and English politicians and political positions in general) has such low esteem north of the Border. Similarly, I don't think that Westminster has the political capital to reimpose its will on the people of Northern Ireland (rare in any case) or Wales. But that's not really what I meant by "in this place". If people so decided here in this model parliament to wipe away nearly 15 years of development, they could and there would be no direct consequences. It could never happen, now, in real life. Thank god for it too.
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    Aye. Our historic architecture should be preserved.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    It's not a hissy fit, it's simply that you're probably the most careful of all so when even you don't particularly care about the people who don't happen to live in England's boundaries, it is disheartening but yes, I have to admit, I was reacting to your having snapped. Took it a bit far? Probably.
    *sigh* Sorry. I'm a little madam.

    Anyway yes basically we will try and do this in such a way as to apply to all nations within the union without trampling all over devolution. As you know I try to take devolution in to account but I probably lack the expertise. Your input is welcomed, as it will be with another bill that I've got in the pipeline in our sub forum.
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    This makes no sense at all. Gumming up cities with even more marginally "unique" buildings from the 19th century is not going to reduce energy consumption, rather increase it.
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