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If a tree falls in the wood............ Watch

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    (Original post by LittleMissDancer)
    However, principles of quantum tell us that if we're not observing, the tree is both standing and fallen at the same time. It's only when we turn to look that it 'decides'.
    Not strictly true, just as Schrodinger's cat actually fails as an example. The tree has a definite state if it in any way interacts with other particles; there is nothing special about human observation compared to any other form (even "unconscious" observing objects).
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    (Original post by Joel R)
    Sigh.

    Ever had an electronic guitar tuner, or similar?

    Not a brain, can detect music.

    If you had perfect pitch, you could use such a tuner to sing a song you'd never heard. The sound you hear in your mind and the physical wave are two different things, but both are 'sounds'.

    Edit: Realised I'm kind of repeating what you said. Regardless, why do you give the 'mindsound' precedence over the 'soundwave' when someone asks you 'does it make a sound'?
    Obviously there's no real answer.

    At first 'yes if course' is usually the obvious answer to many people. But when you start to think about the 'no' answer is when it starts to get interesting. Which is what the thought experiment is all about

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    (Original post by The_Faceman)
    You know the age old question. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a noise.
    Lets get this answered!
    How can a ****ing tree make noise?

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    If a man speaks in the forest and no woman hears him, is he still wrong?
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    (Original post by Joel R)
    Not strictly true, just as Schrodinger's cat actually fails as an example. The tree has a definite state if it in any way interacts with other particles; there is nothing special about human observation compared to any other form (even "unconscious" observing objects).
    How do we know there's nothing special about human observation? It's really the problem with science, we can never know if we're affecting results because we'd have to be observing to collect any data. Science really cannot prove anything because of this fact that it relies on empirical data.
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    It will make a sound, there's just no-one around to hear it..

    btw this convo is making me so confused!!!
    i could never do Philosophy!!!!!
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    yes
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    leave a video recorder in the woods

    ----------------------end of story----------------------
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    (Original post by the bear)
    If a man speaks in the forest and no woman hears him, is he still wrong?
    If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, how long can some A-Level Philosophy students discuss it for?
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    If you state that the tree does make noise when it falls then using this logic you can explain an existence without god, as yet we cannot see it, but using explanations we can use probability to make a reasoned conclusion (referring back - tree causes vibrations in the air yet we cannot be there to know for sure).
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    (Original post by LittleMissDancer)
    How do we know there's nothing special about human observation? It's really the problem with science, we can never know if we're affecting results because we'd have to be observing to collect any data. Science really cannot prove anything because of this fact that it relies on empirical data.
    That is why they use probability
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    If an ant breaks wind on a lonely hilltop must it still say "pardon" ?
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    Some people seem to think that as soon as there is no human observer all the laws of the Universe just break down and nothing is certain.

    It's called conservation of energy.
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    what does your answer reveal about your beliefs/
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    (Original post by LittleMissDancer)
    How do we know there's nothing special about human observation? It's really the problem with science, we can never know if we're affecting results because we'd have to be observing to collect any data. Science really cannot prove anything because of this fact that it relies on empirical data.
    That's not really correct. We can make theories that explain how the universe currently is (based off empirical data), and then we realise that they must have been true for the entire history of the universe in order to form the universe we see today, despite the fact we weren't observing way back then (bar perhaps some really confusing statement about "we observe CMBR and have therefore been 'watching' for the whole of time since the big bang").

    We assume there's nothing special about human observation, because there has never been anything inherently special about humans themselves, or the Earth, or even any individual civilisation. Unless you believe in a God which made only humans and this vast universe, but that's a whole different argument.
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    (Original post by BAD AT MATHS)
    Laws of physics brah.
    Not sure brah goes together with law of physics!
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    (Original post by The_Faceman)
    Not sure brah goes together with law of physics!
    :tumble:
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    erm.. sound still exists as it's waves in the air.

    the fact somebody is not around to hear it doesn't mean the sound is not there.

    i've never understood this, as it's faulty logic.
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    Imagine a hypothetical situation, in which two people for the sake of clarity, we shall call them person A and person B, now person A is in perfect condition, they do not have any difficulties in their ability to perceive sound; person B however is deaf and is not able to perceive sound.

    Now imagine that I drop an object onto the floor, what person A will hear is what one would call a sound, person B however will hear nothing. Person B was incapable of perceiving the sound waves nevertheless they must have existed for person A to have heard them through sensory observation. You would not say that there was no sound because person B wasn't able to perceive it.

    Now if we return to the original proposition, sound exists independently of the observer, you don't have to perceive in order for it to exist, but it will only be heard if there is an animal with a sensory medium to convert it.

    So yes the tree makes a sound but it is not heard.
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    I do not know for certain, but I believe this is along the lines of the correct answer:

    The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
    The name that can be named is not the eternal name
    The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
    The named is the mother of myriad things
    Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
    Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
    These two emerge together but differ in name
    The unity is said to be the mystery
    Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
 
 
 
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