Undercover soldiers 'killed unarmed civilians in Belfast' Watch

felamaslen
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#21
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You know what they say, those who fight monsters should beware of becoming one themselves. Fortunately, this sort of barbarity is uncommon and despised in the British army, rather than being its primary focus, like it is of the terrorist IRA.
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DorianGrayism
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(Original post by Arbolus)

The soldiers then shouldn't be prosecuted for their mistake, as it seems they had no way of knowing otherwise. The most that should happen is that the families should be paid compensation - that's what often happens in other countries when a non-combatant is mistakenly killed.
No, I disagree with both points.

The soldiers are responsible for their actions. So are their superiors. The police cannot shoot everyone that they suspect have a weapon on them.

The families shouldn't be paid. I am not paying families for the another idiotic mistake of the British Government.
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Et Tu, Brute?
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(Original post by thunder_chunky)
Because we don't live in a fairytale.
I have seen another world.

(Original post by Arbolus)
The story says that people were shot if they were suspected to be IRA members and to be armed. That suggests to me that the ten civilians were just the instances where the soldier's instincts happened to be wrong.

The soldiers then shouldn't be prosecuted for their mistake, as it seems they had no way of knowing otherwise. The most that should happen is that the families should be paid compensation - that's what often happens in other countries when a non-combatant is mistakenly killed.
Discos?

Fruit stalls?

What sort of terrorists did these soldiers have in mind when they gunned these people down, who clearly posed no threat to anyone at all.

At the time, soldiers where only allowed to fire at people if there were lives in danger. In these cases, clearly there was no danger. Yet they shot them down like dogs.

Why are you defending these murderous scum bags exactly?

They are no better than the scum bags who planted bombs or drove around in the black cabs looking for someone to murder.

Bloody Friday was condemned by the IRA leadership as a disaster, a mistake. Because it was a mistake make it ok? Of bloody well course it doesn't. Yet here you are palming off murder as a 'mistake'.

You have no idea just how quick people can be to kill over political or religious differences. It is a hatred that has poisoned this island. I shouldn't expect you to know about it since you have never stared this kind of death in the face.

A killer is a killer. That is that. Doesn't matter what side they are killing for.
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Sharpshooter
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(Original post by Arbolus)
The soldiers then shouldn't be prosecuted for their mistake, as it seems they had no way of knowing otherwise.
I disagree with that ruling because it can be opened to abuse if soldiers have that much leeway. Soldiers do make mistakes but some, a minority, purposefully abuse their rights and do go on mass killing sprees because they know they can get away with it, and your rather daft suggestion makes them more likely to do it.

Of course now the United States correctly gave a life sentence to Sgt Robert Bales, who massacred 16 innocent Afghan civilians, but under your definition, soldiers just make mistakes huh?

Now I'm against prosecutions for these British soldiers, had they commited unlawful killings, but only because of the good friday agreement, in which IRA were realised also under that agreement. In wouldn't be wise IMO to prosecute British soliders while having Gerry Kelly and Martin Mcguinness running around in stormont, nor fair either.
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thunder_chunky
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(Original post by Et Tu, Brute?)
I have seen another world.
Such a world does not exist
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Et Tu, Brute?
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(Original post by thunder_chunky)
Such a world does not exist
Only to those who cannot see it...
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MatureStudent36
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Q - 'Why did you use a silencer?'


A- '' - to keep it quiet, we were an undercover squad.....'

And yet in non of those shootings were suppressed weapons used.


I think the 'documentary' went downhill from there.
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by Sharpshooter)
Petty grudges exist on both sides. Many protestants have no interest in marrying or mixing with catholics because they fear their ethnicity and heritage will become diluted, and as a people they will disappear. Some of these people are against mixed marriages and are against mixed schools. This of course goes on both sides. But it is not soley one sided and surely you are not that naive to believe otherwise.
I never said it was one sided. What I said applies to both sides, obviously, and I implied as much in the first sentence.
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by Unruly Marmite)
I saw a similar article on the Daily Mail website, but I'm a little dubious, for a couple of reasons: 1, it was to promote a book, 2, several of the comments pointed out that the depictions of the 'actions' seen were unrealistic and 3, wouldn't any member of this unit have to sign the Official Secrets Act? Also, it seems stupid to come out with something like this while you can still be prosecuted. I'm not saying things like this didn't happen, but the timing seems...convenient.
You're actually talking about a different topic that was addressed a few weeks ago. Mainly a new book on British collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries called "Lethal Allies".
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by Arbolus)
The story says that people were shot if they were suspected to be IRA members and to be armed. That suggests to me that the ten civilians were just the instances where the soldier's instincts happened to be wrong.

The soldiers then shouldn't be prosecuted for their mistake, as it seems they had no way of knowing otherwise. The most that should happen is that the families should be paid compensation - that's what often happens in other countries when a non-combatant is mistakenly killed.
You obviously didn't watch the show or read the article. It was clearly damning. No evidence of paramilitary connections and absolutely no evidence of weapons. They murdered 10 civilians and injured scores more.
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by felamaslen)
You know what they say, those who fight monsters should beware of becoming one themselves. Fortunately, this sort of barbarity is uncommon and despised in the British army, rather than being its primary focus, like it is of the terrorist IRA.
Try Ballymurphy, Glenanne Gang, MRF, bloody Sunday and so on. I think you fundamentally fail to understand the nature of the conflict when you start introducing absolute hierarchies of morality.
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Certain dubious actions in a conflict shouldn't be a reason to not remember our war dead. He could for example have chosen to honour the 50,000 Irish who chose to fight Nazi tryranny in WW2.
The money raised in the poppy appeal goes towards veterans of Iraq, Afganistan and Northern Ireland. Not exactly something I would morally agree with contributing to. Poppy fascism is disgusting.
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felamaslen
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
Try Ballymurphy, Glenanne Gang, MRF, bloody Sunday and so on. I think you fundamentally fail to understand the nature of the conflict when you start introducing absolute hierarchies of morality.
I think you fail to understand my argument if you think a list of minor atrocities carried out by certain British army soldiers negates the superiority of their principles when juxtaposed with those of the IRA.
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by felamaslen)
I think you fail to understand my argument if you think a list of minor atrocities carried out by certain British army soldiers negates the superiority of their principles when juxtaposed with those of the IRA.
I genuinely don't think you know enough about the IRA, or the British Army for that matter.
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felamaslen
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
I genuinely don't think you know enough about the IRA, or the British Army for that matter.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what legitimate nationalist grievances of the 70s IRA against the liberal democracy of the UK justified their actions. Would Ireland be better off with or without the Troubles? I acknowledge crimes were committed by the UK army, but at least they have principle, in most cases.
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by felamaslen)
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what legitimate nationalist grievances of the 70s IRA against the liberal democracy of the UK justified their actions. Would Ireland be better off with or without the Troubles? I acknowledge crimes were committed by the UK army, but at least they have principle, in most cases.
What an absolutely ridiculous post. I could not have expressed your total lack of knowledge better myself. Last nights documentary addressed issues from 1972. Here is a very basic list of grievances:

In that year alone 14 civilians were murdered in Derry by the British Army. A whitewash of an inquiry chaired by Widgery initially exonerated the army and blamed the innocent victims. It took a 14 year, 200 million pound, inquiry and over 40 years of campaigning to address this issue.

Gerrymandering of political boundaries took place insofar as that a nationalist city like Derry (c. 70% Catholic) had a unionist controlled council.

NICRA was brutally suppressed by a sectarian police force.

Internment was in effect. Diplock trials were common place.

Civilians were killed during operation motorman.

The UDA and the UVF operated with near impunity.

The UDR, basically a sectarian militia operated with impunity. Between 5 & 15% were estimated to be members of loyalist paramilitaries.

The MRF were killing innocent civilians.

In 1971 11 civilians were killed by the army in Belfast.

I could go on ad nauseum. This is merely off the top of my head.
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
The money raised in the poppy appeal goes towards veterans of Iraq, Afganistan and Northern Ireland. Not exactly something I would morally agree with contributing to. Poppy fascism is disgusting.
Along with veterans of numerous other conflicts. People's views on Iraq would probably be different if the Americans didn't **** up the post-invasion regime building, there is nothing morally unjust about Afghanistan, and the vast majority of troops who served in Northern Ireland did an exemplary job of peacekeeping in spite of provocation. You've done pretty much exactly what I said in the quote- taking a few dubious and questionable actions to taint the entire legacy of the Armed Forces.
Your liberal use of the word 'facism' is rather ridiculous, btw.
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Along with veterans of numerous other conflicts. People's views on Iraq would probably be different if the Americans didn't **** up the post-invasion regime building, there is nothing morally unjust about Afghanistan, and the vast majority of troops who served in Northern Ireland did an exemplary job of peacekeeping in spite of provocation. You've done pretty much exactly what I said in the quote- taking a few dubious and questionable actions to taint the entire legacy of the Armed Forces.
Your liberal use of the word 'facism' is rather ridiculous, btw.
We (James and I) consider ourselves Irish, why should we be guilted/pressured into supporting the veterans of Britain's (neo)colonial wars, especially when on our community has an array of personal experiences of grievances with the army? How nonsensical!
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Along with veterans of numerous other conflicts. People's views on Iraq would probably be different if the Americans didn't **** up the post-invasion regime building, there is nothing morally unjust about Afghanistan, and the vast majority of troops who served in Northern Ireland did an exemplary job of peacekeeping in spite of provocation. You've done pretty much exactly what I said in the quote- taking a few dubious and questionable actions to taint the entire legacy of the Armed Forces.
Your liberal use of the word 'facism' is rather ridiculous, btw.
And on Iraq, the invasion itself was entirely unjustifiable.
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Clip
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
The money raised in the poppy appeal goes towards veterans of Iraq, Afganistan and Northern Ireland. Not exactly something I would morally agree with contributing to. Poppy fascism is disgusting.
Disgusting to you, maybe. I thinks it's ok. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, and all that.
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