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    I love how OP labeled this thread ''Feminism''. :afraid:
    Trying to cause a flame war?
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    (Original post by Dez)
    It happens rather a lot actually. Speak to any woman in her 30s or 40s and chances are she'll have been actively discriminated against at some point in the past. That's not even considering instances where discrimination has happened behind their backs.
    It's funny, really, that this viewpoint amongst exists on TSR. I'd never heard any women mention this even in passing in any context before, so I was curious about whether they felt this way in secret - and decided to find out!

    I know quite a few women in that demographic in professional jobs (doctors/bankers/academics). I asked them not just if they'd ever felt discriminated against, but whether they thought that any discrimination existed at all in their respective industries. The unanimous answer was no - they all said they didn't think it existed in the slightest.

    Both happen disproportionately more to women. And yes, they do. By quite a large margin in fact. As I pointed out above men win the majority of custody cases where they actually ask for custody.
    Rape and domestic violence are nothing to do with 'discrimination' per se. Legally, both issues are already heavily weighted in favour of women, but they continue to be disproportionately male crimes. Obviously biology plays a role in this.

    Without bogging this down into a tedious argument about what counts as adequate representation and what doesn't, tell me, if things were reversed and there had only been one male PM in Britain's history, lasting 11 years out of the last three centuries, would you feel adequately represented? I'm sure many men would not.
    First, it's quite a non-sequitur to use three centuries of history to suggest that women are underrepresented right now. Clearly the legal and social framework has changed within that time.

    Second, representation in politics is hardly a sound barometer of feminist progress. I submit the case of India, which has quite a strong matriarchal leadership lineage (as well as numerous female ministers of states) - yet I'm sure you would agree that the country is hardly a model of feminism. Heck, Pakistan elected Benazir Bhutto as PM - so they have had the same number of female leaders as the UK. Do you think that puts Pakistan on par with the UK for women's rights?

    Finally, yes, I would feel adequately represented if the situation was reversed. I don't see what a PM's gender has to do with their ability to run the country.
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    TSR Group Staff
    (Original post by ClickItBack)
    It's funny, really, that this viewpoint amongst exists on TSR. I'd never heard any women mention this even in passing in any context before, so I was curious about whether they felt this way in secret - and decided to find out!

    I know quite a few women in that demographic in professional jobs (doctors/bankers/academics). I asked them not just if they'd ever felt discriminated against, but whether they thought that any discrimination existed at all in their respective industries. The unanimous answer was no - they all said they didn't think it existed in the slightest.
    My experience has been the opposite of that, and most surveys on the subject suggest discrimination happens quite a lot. I would argue in any case that this isn't an insignificant issue, and someone who campaigns for it instead of custody rights is very unlikely to be doing so because they don't believe in mens' rights.

    (Original post by ClickItBack)
    Rape and domestic violence are nothing to do with 'discrimination' per se. Legally, both issues are already heavily weighted in favour of women, but they continue to be disproportionately male crimes. Obviously biology plays a role in this.
    Did I say they were? I was asked to say what issues women face that are more severe than child custody issues faced by men. Rape and domestic abuse are both far more widespread than misjudged child custody cases.

    (Original post by ClickItBack)
    First, it's quite a non-sequitur to use three centuries of history to suggest that women are underrepresented right now. Clearly the legal and social framework has changed within that time.

    Second, representation in politics is hardly a sound barometer of feminist progress. I submit the case of India, which has quite a strong matriarchal leadership lineage (as well as numerous female ministers of states) - yet I'm sure you would agree that the country is hardly a model of feminism. Heck, Pakistan elected Benazir Bhutto as PM - so they have had the same number of female leaders as the UK. Do you think that puts Pakistan on par with the UK for women's rights?

    Finally, yes, I would feel adequately represented if the situation was reversed. I don't see what a PM's gender has to do with their ability to run the country.
    Fine then, ignore this point. I don't want to get sidetracked over a political debate.
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    (Original post by Dez)
    My experience has been the opposite of that, and most surveys on the subject suggest discrimination happens quite a lot. I would argue in any case that this isn't an insignificant issue, and someone who campaigns for it instead of custody rights is very unlikely to be doing so because they don't believe in mens' rights.
    I would argue conversely: that it is a non-existent issue. I say this based on my experience working, conversations with family/friends/colleagues in work, and the legal framework in place for gender pay equality.

    In fact in my industry (investment banking), competent women command a premium over men as there is the perception that they are better at client interaction, and also because hiring women looks good for the banks. No joke.

    I've seen some surveys/studies before which attempt to demonstrate the existence of a pay gap, but I have yet to see one which accounts for: differing pay of professions, years of full time experience (sans maternity leave), and competence. If you do have such a study, please do share it; I'm not dogmatic in my views and always go with the evidence.

    Did I say they were? I was asked to say what issues women face that are more severe than child custody issues faced by men. Rape and domestic abuse are both far more widespread than misjudged child custody cases.
    Indeed, but 'issues' are not homogeneous. Child custody is at base a legal issue. Rape and domestic abuse are social issues, insofar as the punishments are commensurate with the crimes, strictly enforced and non-biased (or rather, biased in women's favour). Can you think of any legal issues that women face today?
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    Feminism is the idea that we can make everyone equal by only focusing upon the one gender (except of course when it comes to prison time, child custody and 'women and children first') .
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    (Original post by Dez)
    Employment discrimination
    Domestic violence and rape
    Chronic lack of political representation at any level

    All of these are a zillion times more widespread than the incredibly small number of child custody cases that may or may not have been misjudged. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
    employment discrimination? why would a male employer discriminate against women? by discriminating against a more competent person who happens to be a woman in comparison to a man, he is depriving himself of a larger profit. why would a money-hungry company actively choose less money by hiring only men when there are women who have more qualifications in this scenario? surely this would suggest that one company could dominate the market by employing only women, who happen to have high qualifications of course, and beat the companies that only hire less qualified men? obviously because gender doesn't matter like you're saying, at least in no way like it used to. it would only be a matter of discrimination if *married women* are of the subject, because they are likely to either quit their job or take time off due to a greater likelihood of giving birth to children, and women tend to desire raising children more so than men do in society (that's their collective choice, not mine or an employer's) so obviously, in the case of married women, it is not as profitable to hire them. so if women either don't get married or begin to proportionate child care with their partners, you will get a *logical* form of discrimination, not an unfair or illogical one; if a company eists to make money, opposed to serve employees with jobs, then it's their choice on whom to employ to best seek their goal. also, in terms of jobs that demand physical strength, this is obviously another case of profits being lessened for the purpose of "gender fairness".

    domestic violence and rape
    1) men are physically abused far more than statistics would suggest, because not only is it more culturally accepted for women to physically harm men, but because of this, men are too ashamed to report it because it would make them feel weak. women aren't disproportionally abused, this is only our cultural impression based on how we've been taught to perceive abuse against women to be worse
    2) in terms of rape, don't assume that women are the sole victims of rape. sure, there are more women raped than men, but also there are more children sexually abused by women than men, does that mean I think that little boys should demand more legal rights, to the discriminatory effect against girls, simply because it is more likely to be towards them and not another person?

    chronic lack of political representation
    again, this is only because women don't seek political careers like men do. that's simply the reality of the situation. women are still the majority of voters, so they could be said to mean more to parliament than men, so they don't lack political representation in that respect. nobody can help it if women don't try to become MPs more so than men, and obviously, there *are* still a reasonable amount of women in parliament in comparison to other countries, although I'm not saying this is satisfactory - I would say that more women should enter the political market - not enforce, by law, gender quotas for political parties and to shoe-horn them in as if they're too pathetic to do it themselves like women such as margaret thatcher.
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    I'd just like to throw in that this is also a result of misogyny and the enforcement of "traditional" gender roles because a woman's "place" is considered to be the home and women are expected to have children and take care of them while their husband is working. It's why you see single mothers vilified for literally everything that involves money because they work but also get financial aid for having children even though they don't stay at home to take care of them all day so that sort of thing gets called selfish. Likewise with men, their "job" is considered to be in the workplace and just generally not at home. It's because of what women are stereotyped as (caring, better parents, homemakers, etc, although this is not necessarily always the case).

    I'm not sure what sort of feminism you've encountered thus far, but it's not real feminism. Real feminism is about destroying misogyny and gender roles so that everyone is equal. I guess it's because I probably wouldn't like to be around anyone who's against equality of any kind, but I honestly don't know anyone who is a feminist and wants, I don't know, a matriarchy or something like that? Misogyny doesn't only affect women. It affects men too, particularly if you aren't fulfilling the gender roles you're expected to fulfil.
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    (Original post by cantankerouscrab)
    I'd just like to throw in that this is also a result of misogyny and the enforcement of "traditional" gender roles because a woman's "place" is considered to be the home and women are expected to have children and take care of them while their husband is working. It's why you see single mothers vilified for literally everything that involves money because they work but also get financial aid for having children even though they don't stay at home to take care of them all day so that sort of thing gets called selfish. Likewise with men, their "job" is considered to be in the workplace and just generally not at home. It's because of what women are stereotyped as (caring, better parents, homemakers, etc, although this is not necessarily always the case).

    I'm not sure what sort of feminism you've encountered thus far, but it's not real feminism. Real feminism is about destroying misogyny and gender roles so that everyone is equal. I guess it's because I probably wouldn't like to be around anyone who's against equality of any kind, but I honestly don't know anyone who is a feminist and wants, I don't know, a matriarchy or something like that? Misogyny doesn't only affect women. It affects men too, particularly if you aren't fulfilling the gender roles you're expected to fulfil.
    Typical feminazi. It's always the men's fault isn't it? Blame everything on the patriarchy! Despite the fact that no one in today's society believes that women still belong at home... Maybe you should go back to the 1940s.
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    (Original post by Jordooooom)
    Typical feminazi. It's always the men's fault isn't it? Blame everything on the patriarchy! Despite the fact that no one in today's society believes that women still belong at home... Maybe you should go back to the 1940s.
    I literally just said this isn't men's fault but all right.
    (though I'd say comparing what I said to mass genocide on racial grounds is pretty extreme)
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    (Original post by cantankerouscrab)
    I literally just said this isn't men's fault but all right.
    (though I'd say comparing what I said to mass genocide on racial grounds is pretty extreme)
    Uhm what?

    ''id just like to throw in that this is also a result of misogyny' so yes you clearly said this was men's fault.

    And why are you even bring up mass genocide and race?
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    (Original post by Jordooooom)
    Uhm what?

    ''id just like to throw in that this is also a result of misogyny' so yes you clearly said this was men's fault.

    And why are you even bring up mass genocide and race?
    People of all genders may be guilty of misogyny? Also, it's not men's fault. Maybe in the past it has been men themselves who came up with the concept but now misogyny is largely institutionalised that we're just taught it's the norm and if you're a (cisgender) man, you're all the more likely to believe that because, whether you realise it or not, you benefit from it. If you're a (cis) woman, you probably under the impression that if you'd be off better too because 1.you don't realise it harms you 2.it's the norm and being in it feels safer for everyone, regardless of gender. If you're not gender binary you're pretty much ****ed either way but that's a topic for another time.
    I really don't know why you feel that I was implying men were at fault here. I really wish it was as simple as just blaming one group or the other, but things aren't so black and white.

    As far as mass genocide and race are concerned, if you're confused as to why I started talking about those then you probably shouldn't be using the word 'feminazi' without knowing what being a nazi actually means.
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    (Original post by cantankerouscrab)
    People of all genders may be guilty of misogyny? Also, it's not men's fault. Maybe in the past it has been men themselves who came up with the concept but now misogyny is largely institutionalised that we're just taught it's the norm and if you're a (cisgender) man, you're all the more likely to believe that because, whether you realise it or not, you benefit from it. If you're a (cis) woman, you probably under the impression that if you'd be off better too because 1.you don't realise it harms you 2.it's the norm and being in it feels safer for everyone, regardless of gender. If you're not gender binary you're pretty much ****ed either way but that's a topic for another time.
    I really don't know why you feel that I was implying men were at fault here. I really wish it was as simple as just blaming one group or the other, but things aren't so black and white.

    Hardly... why did you say it was a result of misogyny when it has nothing to do with the women being seen as a simple housewife, which isn't even a common view these days. It's about a man being kicked out of his own home and not being able to see his children.

    Oh and by the way gender roles always have and always will exist. Why? Because men and women aren't equal. We are biologically and neurologically different. It's not some crazy conspiracy theory,,,


    As far as mass genocide and race are concerned, if you're confused as to why I started talking about those then you probably shouldn't be using the word 'feminazi' without knowing what being a nazi actually means.

    Oh god :facepalm:


    ..
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    Although the man in this case is unfortunate, I can't help but be unsympathetic. Although he never got the chance to try and have a relationship with his kids, I can't help but think of all the cases I know where the mother has been granted primary care, and the father uses his 'partial custody' to p*ss the kids around.

    This has happened to me, my partner, my cousins, my friends...

    For example, my father once told me he was going to pick up at 11 to stay over at his. I waited with my bags packed by the door for hours, and he never showed up, despite my mum trying to ring him. She saw I was upset and got mad, basically left him a message saying he can b*llocks, and then she took me to my grandparents. He turned up on their doorstep mouthing off, saying the usual "You cant stop me seeing my child" line.

    My partner - used to be invited to his dads, turn up, and his dad wouldn't be in. When his mum got sick of this, and refused to drop my partner any more. His dad then threatened to take legal action for denying access to his son.

    My cousins dad last week, offered to take him out, but when he was asked what time he'd be there he just said 'when I wake up'. So my cousin didn't bother, and again his dad turned up at his house with his knickers in a twist.

    I'm not saying all men are like this with their kids, but you see my point? And I hate to use fathers as an example, sometimes it is the mothers. Don't want to anger the misogynists on here.
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    feminism is shameful and embarrassing to women in a 21st century context. it treats them as inferior, incapable and in need of help. it makes them seem pitiful and weak. it is the movement of feminine self-loathing. it is the bush of a shamed society. the sigh of the suppressed culture and the whimper of a hopeless situation. it is a philosophy of jealousy. it aims to share misery with men while it feasts on the spirit of self-worth of other women not begging for pity. it is a "vulture culture", and the government is its poisonous nest; its breeding ground. it is a verminous disease. and it's mutating from a disease into a plague
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    Don't worry OP. I'm absolutely certain that feminists are working around the clock to try to enforce total equality; for both genders into our society. I'm sure they are. In fact, I would assume the Minister for WOMEN and Equality has made it her priority.
 
 
 
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