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Russia have a trump card up it's sleeve? Evidence that 9/11 was an inside job watch

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    (Original post by the bear)
    ewww i would prefer to visit Uranus

    :rofl:
    How are you pronouncing that?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's THE place to holiday. I believe Richard Branson has a condo there and so does Kim K.
    I'd heard it was the other Kim and his dynasty. That haircut was all the rage on the moon not too long ago.
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    Pretty classic conspiracy stuff there

    Putin is the hero - check
    Israel did it - check
    Not being report because j00z run the media :dunce: - check
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    I'd heard it was the other Kim and his dynasty. That haircut was all the rage on the moon not too long ago.
    Yeah, they call that 'Lunar NK'. I believe most top salons offer it these days.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Given that Putin actually called George Bush the day before 9/11 to warn him that something was going on after the assassination of the leader of the Northern alliance
    I haven't read that report, and I'm quite familiar with 9/11. The Russians definitely warned the Americans in August 2001 that they knew that suicide pilots were training to attack American targets, but I'm unaware of any call by Putin on September 10th 2001 to warn him something was in the works.

    The closest thing I can recall is the call on September 8th from Mamdouh Habib, a terrorist in the Afghan training camps, to his wife in Sydney to tell her that "something will happen in the US in the next few days". Australian intelligence was listening in and passed the recording to the Central Intelligence Agency. But no Putin call AFAIK

    On the issue of conspiracies, there are certainly issues about extraordinary malfeasance and incompetence, the failure of the CIA to warn the FBI for 18 months that they knew the hijackers Al Mihdhar and Al Hazmi had already slipped into the United States, and all the warnings by foreign intelligence agencies (including the British) that a big attack was in the works. But I've seen no evidence that there was any conspiracy by the Americans
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    How are you pronouncing that?
    Uranus... it's the third largest thing in the Solar System :hmmmm2:
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Not being report because j00z run the media :dunce: - check
    Indeed. "The Joos did it" conspiracy theories are bizarre because it's a matter of public record that Israeli intelligence warned the US about the Al-Qaeda plot; if Israel did it, they would hardly pass intelligence to the Americans about it in advance.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Given that Putin actually called George Bush the day before 9/11 to warn him that something was going on after the assassination of the leader of the Northern alliance I very much doubt he has evidence it was an inside job, And christ really? The twin towers were nuked were they..... These conspiracy theories get more idiotic by the year.
    It's a shame wacky ideas undermine the real doubts and are then clumped together as one.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Indeed. "The Joos did it" conspiracy theories are bizarre because it's a matter of public record that Israeli intelligence warned the US about the Al-Qaeda plot; if Israel did it, they would hardly pass intelligence to the Americans about it in advance.
    Can you not see how that makes sense? They gave them the intel so that they would be absolved of any blame despite being the real minds behind it all because Israel wants nothing more than wars on all its borders...... I'll get back to you on the Putin phone call. Pretty sure I read it in The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright, but I'll check when I get my hands on the book again.

    (Original post by TheGrinningSkull)
    It's a shame wacky ideas undermine the real doubts and are then clumped together as one.
    What doubts do you have about it?
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Can you not see how that makes sense? They gave them the intel so that they would be absolved of any blame despite being the real minds behind it all because Israel wants nothing more than wars on all its borders...... I'll get back to you on the Putin phone call. Pretty sure I read it in The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright, but I'll check when I get my hands on the book again.
    That doesn't make sense in light of the other evidence. If Israel did it (for which there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and it's offensive to say so when we have so much evidence about the Bin Laden organisation, about the Saudis and Pakistanis who funded and planned the attack), then why would they leak details about the attacks to the Russians, the Brits, the French, the Jordanians and the Egyptians (all of whom warned the Americans over the summer of 2001)?

    By the way, the fact of those warnings shouldn't be taken as proving the Americans knew and did nothing. It is not a conspiracy along those lines, it is more complex and far more about incompetence, malfeasance, ideological disbelief and so on
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    That doesn't make sense in light of the other evidence. If Israel did it (for which there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and it's offensive to say so when we have so much evidence about the Bin Laden organisation, about the Saudis and Pakistanis who funded and planned the attack), then why would they leak details about the attacks to the Russians, the Brits, the French, the Jordanians and the Egyptians (all of whom warned the Americans over the summer of 2001)?

    By the way, the fact of those warnings shouldn't be taken as proving the Americans knew and did nothing. It is not a conspiracy along those lines, it is more complex and far more about incompetence, malfeasance, ideological disbelief and so on
    I'm sure it makes sense to someone. Frankly I think Israel's importance in all these conspiracy theories stems from simple antisemitism. That's the only reason I think of for the "Truther" movements obsession.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
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    I was sent this video that outlines all of the foreign intelligence warnings that the US government received over the summer of 2001 from the British, French, Israelis, Russians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Germans etc.

    Ironically (or not), the evidence of US incompetence in failing to heed these warnings is actually something that demonstrates the lack of credibility in the conspiracy theories. The fact that so many governments picked up on and detected this al-Qaeda plots proves that it was a real plot. If it was a secret US or Israeli plot, they would have had far better operational security than to see it leaked to so many people

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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I was sent this video that outlines all of the foreign intelligence warnings that the US government received over the summer of 2001 from the British, French, Israelis, Russians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Germans etc.

    Ironically (or not), the evidence of US incompetence in failing to heed these warnings is actually something that demonstrates the lack of credibility in the conspiracy theories. The fact that so many governments picked up on and detected this al-Qaeda plots proves that it was a real plot. If it was a secret US or Israeli plot, they would have had far better operational security than to see it leaked to so many people

    Hindsight makes it so easy to look back and wonder how they missed it when you see things like the above. I know a number of FBI agents were struck by feelings of guilt in the days after 9/11 from not stopping the attack.

    Its hardly surprising they missed it in some ways I think. There seems to be this view in the public eye of the intelligence services as being all seeing, all knowing and completely infallible. The CIA and others have constantly missed events throughout their history, the CIA is notorious for missing nuclear proliferation. The only difference here is that it was an attack on the US so people just assume they must have been involved, rather than understanding the difficulties and partial incompetence within American intelligence. As you highlighted earlier the jealous and lack of cooperation within American government organisations is beyond belief.

    I don't think it would be much of a stretch to perhaps say its a surprise an attack like this did not happen earlier.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Its hardly surprising they missed it in some ways I think. There seems to be this view in the public eye of the intelligence services as being all seeing, all knowing and completely infallible. The CIA and others have constantly missed events throughout their history, the CIA is notorious for missing nuclear proliferation. The only difference here is that it was an attack on the US so people just assume they must have been involved, rather than understanding the difficulties and partial incompetence within American intelligence. As you highlighted earlier the jealous and lack of cooperation within American government organisations is beyond belief.
    Well said. The CIA didn't even predict the fall of the Soviet Union, for goodness sake. I think in the case of 9/11 there was malfeasance as well as incompetence, but no conspiracy. Particularly in respect of the hijackers Al Hazmi and Al Mihdhar, the CIA knew they were in the United States from about 2000 and failed to tell the FBI, Richard Clarke believes it was because they wanted to or tried to recruit them as sources (contrary to US federal law that places all such operations on US soil in the hands of the FBI).

    You're right to point out the extraordinary lack of co-operation; the NSA refused to share raw transcripts with the CIA from bin Laden's satellite phone, and it was so dire that the CIA ended up building their own satellite dish receiving station in the middle east to intercept INMARSAT data because of the NSA's intransigence.

    The best documentary I've seen about the subject, which is totally non-conspiracy in orientation but provides a very thorough history of the intelligence failures, the bureaucratic infighting and incredible lost opportunities is this Nova/PBS doco attached below. It also provides a very interesting history of earlier Al Qaeda plots and attacks (like Operation Bojinka, the embassy bombings, etc)

    My only issue generally with the whole "debate" is that those on the non-conspiracy side are so dismissive of the idea that anything untoward happened that they appear not to even accept that people should have been fired and disciplined for the failures. I think it's wrong that they should have been let off the hook, and even promoted

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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Indeed. "The Joos did it" conspiracy theories are bizarre because it's a matter of public record that Israeli intelligence warned the US about the Al-Qaeda plot; if Israel did it, they would hardly pass intelligence to the Americans about it in advance.
    That what the j000z would want you to think


    but they probably tipped the US off so nobody would blame them

    Edit: Aj beat me to it
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    That what the j000z would want you to think

    but they probably tipped the US off so nobody would blame them

    Edit: Aj beat me to it
    Ah yes, of course I thought at the start that Aj12 was serious.

    And I agree, no matter what Israel did to try to prevent the attacks (warning the Americans, providing a list of names of AQ terrorists in the US, including the names of hijackers, etc), they will cop the blame from anti-semitic fruitcakes.

    If someone slips on a banana peel, Israel will take the blame.
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    (Original post by Aj12)


    What doubts do you have about it?
    A bit rusty in my memory, but a few things I need to verify in the official documents, such as 3 missing lateral support beams in the analysis of the main beam that buckled in WTC 7, that would've prevented lateral torsional buckling (need to verify myself).

    The fact that the simulated model does not match actual collapse with many twists and warps that don't appear to have taken place (would be great if they actually made public their modelling data to be subject to peer review).

    Assumption of no thermal conductivity of steel in the model.

    That the model only heated steel and not the concrete floor slabs, which have near the same coefficient of thermal expansion.

    And omission of shear studs in the model connecting the steel and concrete slabs.

    These don't include concerns with regards to the manner in some aspects of the investigation.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I was sent this video that outlines all of the foreign intelligence warnings that the US government received over the summer of 2001 from the British, French, Israelis, Russians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Germans etc.

    Ironically (or not), the evidence of US incompetence in failing to heed these warnings is actually something that demonstrates the lack of credibility in the conspiracy theories. The fact that so many governments picked up on and detected this al-Qaeda plots proves that it was a real plot. If it was a secret US or Israeli plot, they would have had far better operational security than to see it leaked to so many people
    What that video won't mention is that on top of the reports that have since turned out to be accurate, they probably got ten times that amount of reports that turned out to be completely spurious.
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    (Original post by TheGrinningSkull)
    Assumption of no thermal conductivity of steel in the model.

    That the model only heated steel and not the concrete floor slabs, which have near the same coefficient of thermal expansion.

    And omission of shear studs in the model connecting the steel and concrete slabs.
    It just all seems a bit.... implausible, to be honest. It simply doesn't tally with what I know about human nature, and the disposition and personalities of people in the government and military, that someone in the US government would fill these buildings with bombs.

    Even leaving aside the motivation, I can't imagine anyone would be willing to risk that, imagine if they got caught, or the bombs failed to go off. And we have all the evidence of the hijackers and the attack plotters, so it's quite clear there was an Islamist plot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    What that video won't mention is that on top of the reports that have since turned out to be accurate, they probably got ten times that amount of reports that turned out to be completely spurious.
    I think the problem with that is that it is not in dispute that Condie Rice was aware that there were Al-Qaeda cells in the United States, and that at least in the intelligence community they were expecting an attack all that summer. The President, SecDef and National Security Advisor took the threat less seriously than the sppoks, but it's quite clear that the intelligence community were ****ting bricks in July, August and September 2001. That much is beyond dispute
 
 
 
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