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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    Could provide any links regarding in-demand non-traditional fields in IT?

    Thank you
    Nothing to hand, apart from this particular NAO report on Cyber - http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/upl...ull-report.pdf - the headline item from this report being that the NAO think it'll be 20 years before the skills shortage in this domain is filled.
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    (Original post by MUN123)
    Well, I'm a Computer science graduate and I can't seem to find the jobs your talking about, most of them ask for 3-5+ years experience across a number of programming languages (PHP, JAVA, C,C++, Python, Ruby on Rails) Which although I have knowledge of but don't have years of working experience
    There are tons of technology graduate schemes... most companies prefer that you know atleast one programming language i.e. Java, C. But, there are some that just require you to show interest in technology and they will train you up.

    If you look on graduate jobs, target jobs or any other similar websites, you will find that there are many graduate schemes open. There is a huge demand for Computer Science students.

    Yes - these schemes are competitive but if you worked hard for your degree, there is no reason for you to not get one.

    In regards to Computer Science graduates having the highest unemployment rate in the UK, it is quite unbelieveable but if there are statistics, then I guess it is true. I find it hard to believe since I majored in Computer Science; myself, I would say nearly all my course mates and all my friends have got a tech graduate scheme - We are not Oxbridge or Imperial graduates either and most of my friends went into Investment Banking.

    If you are finding it hard, make yourself stand out. Develop websites, develop apps in your free time, show enthusiasm.
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    (Original post by Aloe_vera_gel)
    There are tons of technology graduate schemes... most companies prefer that you know atleast one programming language i.e. Java, C. But, there are some that just require you to show interest in technology and they will train you up.

    ................................ .............

    If you are finding it hard, make yourself stand out. Develop websites, develop apps in your free time, show enthusiasm.

    This is so important. IT requires passion. If the guy is not doing stuff already he will never get a proper job.
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    (Original post by MUN123)
    I find this strange how we hear that businesses complain of skills shortage in development and yet computer science graduates have the highest unemployment rate higher than graduates in arts subject? Am I missing something here?

    Here's a link
    http://www.software.ac.uk/blog/2013-...ter-scientists
    I swear I saw a link the other day that geography graduates had the highest unemployment rate...
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    (Original post by Aloe_vera_gel)
    There are tons of technology graduate schemes... most companies prefer that you know atleast one programming language i.e. Java, C. But, there are some that just require you to show interest in technology and they will train you up.

    If you look on graduate jobs, target jobs or any other similar websites, you will find that there are many graduate schemes open. There is a huge demand for Computer Science students.

    Yes - these schemes are competitive but if you worked hard for your degree, there is no reason for you to not get one.

    In regards to Computer Science graduates having the highest unemployment rate in the UK, it is quite unbelieveable but if there are statistics, then I guess it is true. I find it hard to believe since I majored in Computer Science; myself, I would say nearly all my course mates and all my friends have got a tech graduate scheme - We are not Oxbridge or Imperial graduates either and most of my friends went into Investment Banking.

    If you are finding it hard, make yourself stand out. Develop websites, develop apps in your free time, show enthusiasm.
    Problem is most of those grad schemes require a 2:1 in my case I only received a 2:2, so I doubt that I'll even get to the interview stages
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    (Original post by AdamCee)
    I swear I saw a link the other day that geography graduates had the highest unemployment rate...
    Incorrect it's Computer science grads
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    (Original post by TheCareersGuy)
    In my experience, that's not true. Lots of my IT student friends had lots of job offers. In fact, the number of graduate vacancies in IT and telecoms has risen by 77% over the past seven years so I am not sure what this research is based on.
    HESA....?

    Pretty comprehensive dataset.

    If you don't think the unemployment rate of UK Comp Sci grads is 14% six months after graduation, what do you think it is?
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    Nothing to hand, apart from this particular NAO report on Cyber - http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/upl...ull-report.pdf - the headline item from this report being that the NAO think it'll be 20 years before the skills shortage in this domain is filled.
    So how can I get into the cyber security field, would there be a need for me to gain extra qualifications such as a masters in order to enter this field?
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    http://matt.might.net/articles/what-...s-should-know/

    If you have covered most of everything in this article then you will do fine. :P
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    Comp Sci (and the people that study it) as a degree discipline pisses me off sometimes.

    It's a generalist degree that trains you in a thin veneer of everything, so that after 3 years, you know how an operating system works and how to do basic for loops in a piece of code. It does not qualify you to do anything. A couple of modules does not an expert make. What employers are looking for is a level of dedication and expertise from the people they're hiring. Software developers are highly in demand, but what are not in demand are apprentice software developers that take 4 weeks to write a 2 day piece of code, don't know how to interpret requirements and read a design document, and haven't got the first clue about delivering projects and working in the real world.

    It frustrates me that people, especially from more traditional universities, see: good honours degree + skills shortage = £££££££ This is not a true reflection of the real world at all. Similarly, it annoys me that the same people don't consider less traditional disciplines in IT. I personally think that you have to start specialising your skills in this field at an early age to progress. Yes, it closes doors, but if you pick sensibly, you can end up with essentially a job for life and rapid career progression. Programming is boring, in my personal opinion. As is working with DB's and web development. Some people find this interesting, so I'm not going to criticise people for wanting to get into these (relatively financially rewarding) fields. However, there is more out there than this, but you have to specialise and commit to it. Infosec/Cyber is an area that is grossly under-resourced at the moment. Companies are offering silly money for people with the right skills in this area, but yet so few people are even considering it because it doesn't fit with the cookie cutter Comp Sci graduate prospectus. Half the trouble here is that if you're smart and have good A-Levels and are into IT, you're funnelled in to the Comp Sci path, especially where top unis are concerned, yet these courses teach you very little in the way of practical employability, skills and certainly don't give you any specialism, which causes you then to miss out on the opportunity to pursue specialist careers, as, ironically, you get pipped to the post by people like me, from (comparatively) lowly universities doing non-traditional, practical degrees.
    I would love to know your opinion on this article: http://www.subelsky.com/2010/08/why-...want-that.html.

    It's not long, I promise.
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    Nothing to hand, apart from this particular NAO report on Cyber - http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/upl...ull-report.pdf - the headline item from this report being that the NAO think it'll be 20 years before the skills shortage in this domain is filled.
    Thank you.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    I would love to know your opinion on this article: http://www.subelsky.com/2010/08/why-...want-that.html.

    It's not long, I promise.
    Interesting article.

    So, let me address his points:

    Cyber defen[cs]e is often the opposite of a creative activity

    I both agree and disagree. It depends how your organisation looks at Cyber Security. So many organisations I've worked with see it as an undesirable burden that stifles getting things done. Security shouldn't do that - it should be an enabler of business, not suffocate it. In addition, so many security professionals choose to not push the envelope when it comes to analysis or fixing the root causes of problems. They end up turning the crank all day dealing with the same - Detect > Analyse > Remediate > Close Ticket > Get a coffee > Repeat ad infinitum - loop all day every day. That sort of environment sucks. As a security professional, it's your job to innovate and come up with novel ways of solving the problem. That's inherently fun and exciting to be involved with.

    Classified environments

    Not gonna lie, it sucks. If you don't want to work in classified environments, don't work in the Public Sector or the Defence industry.

    Microsoft Land

    Bovvered.

    Small cog, big machine

    There are plenty of huge organisations out there that don't have this culture of top down, thou shalt do what I say. The organisation I work for is a great example of this, for instance.

    Government pork

    Ehh... government contracts are some of the more challenging ones I've worked on, simply because you're working with competimates and they often exist in heavily outsourced environments that are totally inflexible and indefensible. Still... pays the bills.
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    Yeah I agree it's mostly about passion. Not just for computer science, but engineering as well.

    I know many graduates with multiple job offers to choose from, and many graduates spending months looking and would take just about any job.

    The first group didn't necessarily start coding very early on (many didn't start until university), but they are all very passionate about the subject, tried to learn as much as they can, and all have at least a few side projects. By the time they graduate they already have significant development experience.

    The second group joined CS because they saw ££££. They did the minimum required to get the piece of paper, thinking that's all they need to get a nice high paying job. They have practically 0 development experience, and hate what they do.

    If you are an employer, which group would you pick from?

    The problem with statistics is that it makes this sound like a totally random thing, as if when you graduate, you draw a number from 1 to 100 from a hat, and if you are unlucky and drew a number less than 15 (15% unemployment rate), you don't get a job. The truth is not like that at all. If you are passionate and competent, you are GUARANTEED a few good jobs to choose from. If not, you are not.

    I have mentored many younger students in undergrad (mostly in engineering), and even for first year students, most of the time, within the first 10 minutes of meeting them, I'd know which group they will fall into when they graduate 4 years later (undergrad in most other parts of the world is 4-5 years).
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    (Original post by MUN123)
    So basically to conclude to get a job after a Computer science degree you basically have to be a code monkey from an earlier age whereas with other fields you could pretty much get in without much effort. Therefore, if a Computer science grad doesn't have side projects then they will be pretty much doomed I suppose which therefore explains the high unemployment rate
    False on the first point, and true on the second. Most people started early do well later on not because starting early really gives them that much of an advantage, but because it shows that they are passionate. Correlation != causation.

    Fortunately, #2 is also the one you can easily fix!

    Why not do a few larger projects yourself that can be put on resumes? How about joining an open source project you are interested in? There are all kinds of cool open source projects out there, and if you get to contribute significantly to one of them, not only will you learn a lot and be a much better developer, it will also probably be the strongest thing on your resume.
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    This is an interesting discussion - I am actually studying this phenomena as part of my MSc in Human Resource Management and Development. I want to understand why companies are not hiring these computer science/IT grads when there is such a skills shortage.

    Are they missing soft-skills? Is it experience they lack? Do employers have too high expectations? Are these students simply lazy and too busy playing computer games instead of looking for a job (I know a couple examples where that is very true)?

    Any thoughts are definitely appreciated.
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    (Original post by lellielesley)
    This is an interesting discussion - I am actually studying this phenomena as part of my MSc in Human Resource Management and Development. I want to understand why companies are not hiring these computer science/IT grads when there is such a skills shortage.

    Are they missing soft-skills? Is it experience they lack? Do employers have too high expectations? Are these students simply lazy and too busy playing computer games instead of looking for a job (I know a couple examples where that is very true)?

    Any thoughts are definitely appreciated.
    I would say it's mostly because there's a misunderstanding on students' part, on what their education is giving them.

    A CS degree gives students a shallow introduction to a wide range of topics. It basically shows them how to dig further.

    Someone who knows only what a CS degree teaches them is not employable. They need to take it further with self-directed studies and projects.

    CS graduates who have done the latter are in very high demand and many do get multiple job offers (as you would expect for a labour market where there is a shortage for talents).

    People who haven't done the latter (who see a CS degree as an end instead of a beginning) is unfortunately the majority, and there is no demand for them.
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    I don't think this is true, at least not in london. I have a friend who did cs and graduated last year with 2:2 or even worse can't remember which, and he got Java Developer job 3-4months after graduation, with NO previous computing experience and no any other work experience, and he's not even british.
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    From my experience/knowledge, I've noticed there is a growing demand for computer scientist, yet many few computer scientist actually go onto jobs that require that skill. Such as instead of becoming a software dev, they may go into IT support
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    The myth of a skills shortage is being exagerated by companies and the government to enable them to justify bringing in cheap labour to perform not only entry level programming which new graduates might perform but also to replace very experienced programming professionals. I have over 20 years experience and most companies I have worked for have Indian developers either on site or working remotely earning a fraction of a uk developers salary (1/5 to 1/7th) which equates to a very good wage when the money returns home for them and their families and it despairs me how the young are being misled in the name of corporate greed.
    I have been made redundant due to this and lost chunks of pay over the years that I will never recover.
    If I could help I would say be prepared to work around London in your early days where there are more positions then look to move nearer home as I did. However dont expect a career that wont be bitten at some stage by the outsourcing virus that now perpetuates the uk it industry.
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    (Original post by A Dev)
    The myth of a skills shortage is being exagerated by companies and the government to enable them to justify bringing in cheap labour to perform not only entry level programming which new graduates might perform but also to replace very experienced programming professionals. I have over 20 years experience and most companies I have worked for have Indian developers either on site or working remotely earning a fraction of a uk developers salary (1/5 to 1/7th) which equates to a very good wage when the money returns home for them and their families and it despairs me how the young are being misled in the name of corporate greed.
    I have been made redundant due to this and lost chunks of pay over the years that I will never recover.
    If I could help I would say be prepared to work around London in your early days where there are more positions then look to move nearer home as I did. However dont expect a career that wont be bitten at some stage by the outsourcing virus that now perpetuates the uk it industry.
    This article below covers what is happening with entry level positions but not the fact that (as experienced by myself in recent years) whole teams of experienced developers are being made redundant to offshore teams so that work can be done at a fraction of the cost. You have Blairs government to thank for issuing fast track visas for offshore developers to come over in the early days when the whole disaster for uk developers (needing a wage to pay a uk mortgage) began.
    Some might say, its globalisation accept the competition or suffer. Others might say, leave companies and the government to this deceptive strategy and choose an expensively earned degree and career well clear of IT development.

    http://www.theguardian.com/higher-ed...employment-bme
 
 
 
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