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Farage talks sense on immigration Watch

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    (Original post by AdamQ)
    UKIP are a bunch of fruitcakes, loonies and now not so closet racists, so no I bloody won't vote UKIP.
    When you understand immigration policy get back to me.
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    (Original post by AdamQ)
    UKIP are a bunch of fruitcakes, loonies and now not so closet racists, so no I bloody won't vote UKIP.
    Ah a well constructed and thoughtfully reasoned response to the debate. Well done.

    :rolleyes:
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    I don't fully understand the argument made by people on this thread that "if we leave the EU, we still have to abide by EU regulations but have no say in those regulations".

    Surely we'd only have to obey regulations for exporting to Europe - like sticking to EU safety standards when designing and making cars. Or sticking to EU food safety regulations for food products. Because we couldn't, for example, export cars to Europe if the design doesn't meet EU regulations.

    Surely we would not have to obey other EU regulations not related to stuff we export, like EU immigration rules or justice system? Or am I missing something?
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    (Original post by Sanctimonious)
    You don't need to be in the EU to trade with EU countries. Norway is doing just fine in the EEA due to an EFTA and they have a much smaller population than us.

    We would still buy and sell to the EU block. The notion we wouldn't is hilarious scaremongering by federalist EU idiots like Clegg.
    You mean Norway, the country that is in the Schengen Area, along with every other EFTA state?
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    You mean Norway, the country that is in the Schengen Area, along with every other EFTA state?
    This has already been covered. Learn to read a whole thread before jumping down someone's throat.
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    (Original post by Sanctimonious)
    This has already been covered. Learn to read a whole thread before jumping down someone's throat.
    Where has this been covered? Learn some civility and what 'jumping down someones throat' means.
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    We should stay bonded with our European cousins. Despite what Farage would have you think, the UK simply can't take on the likes of China or the USA by itself. A unified Europe is a strong force, a real power in the world. Those who argue against being in the EU make big claims of the UK taking on the world whilst simultaneously impressing me with the forgotten fact that the UK is itself a unification of several countries.


    (Original post by Jacob-C)
    Yes but doesn't mean they stop because we have left the European Union. We do get benefits from the EU but the negatives greatly out way the positives. Do people invest in the United States even though it's not a member of the EU?
    You're correct that people invest in the USA, however how much bargaining power does California have these days? How's Nebraska doing taking the fight to China? I'm thinking that Denver should go independent, because I'm sure that they have the clout to influence international foreign policy. People invest in the Unified 50 States of Americas.

    It's a good thing Farage wasn't around during times of old, I imagine whilst Qin was busy unifying China he might have dampened his progressive and forward thinking mind set. He dosen't even class as a right wing facist, even Hitler saw the benefit of a strong unified state.

    Perhaps we would indeed be better off in the imminent future outside the EU, exporting stuff and stuff and stuff and not listening to those pesky guys who I didnt vote for in brussels (I don't remember anyone ever voting for any of the individuals down in london telling us what to do, come to think of it..) but it's clear that if we want to retain the prestigious title of a north european country, we should look past the next 3 months and realise the world will go on long after our lives have ended, and it's our children that will be living outside a strong unified Europe. It's our children that will have to deal with the likes of China and the USA and it's certainly going to be our children suffering the consequences of the many poor decisions being made today.
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    (Original post by Reece Sure)
    We should stay bonded with our European cousins. Despite what Farage would have you think, the UK simply can't take on the likes of China or the USA by itself. A unified Europe is a strong force, a real power in the world. Those who argue against being in the EU make big claims of the UK taking on the world whilst simultaneously impressing me with the forgotten fact that the UK is itself a unification of several countries.



    You're correct that people invest in the USA, however how much bargaining power does California have these days? How's Nebraska doing taking the fight to China? I'm thinking that Denver should go independent, because I'm sure that they have the clout to influence international foreign policy. People invest in the Unified 50 States of Americas.

    It's a good thing Farage wasn't around during times of old, I imagine whilst Qin was busy unifying China he might have dampened his progressive and forward thinking mind set. He dosen't even class as a right wing facist, even Hitler saw the benefit of a strong unified state.

    Perhaps we would indeed be better off in the imminent future outside the EU, exporting stuff and stuff and stuff and not listening to those pesky guys who I didnt vote for in brussels (I don't remember anyone ever voting for any of the individuals down in london telling us what to do, come to think of it..) but it's clear that if we want to retain the prestigious title of a north european country, we should look past the next 3 months and realise the world will go on long after our lives have ended, and it's our children that will be living outside a strong unified Europe. It's our children that will have to deal with the likes of China and the USA and it's certainly going to be our children suffering the consequences of the many poor decisions being made today.
    Why do we need influence foreign policy? Why can't we just trade with other nations and worry about our own affairs like most countries. I'd rather be less involved in foreign affairs and be more like Japan or Singapore. The idea that we need economic clout to engage in world trade is ridiculous. We're the world's sixth largest economy and the fastest growing in Europe. Countries with weaker economies with ours manage trade deals with the likes of the EU, USA and China. I remember South Korea has a trade deal with the EU and they don't have to abide by the EU's rules so why should we.

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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    The fastest growing economy?! :eek: This is news to me. May you please provide a source for that?
    The IMF says we are the fastest growing G7 economy this year.

    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    Alternatively, one could argue that the UK would be more disadvantaged than EU. Member states would still have access to the large free market. In other words, they can sell their goods elsewhere (with the remaining states becoming more competitive than the UK due to the absense of tariffs).
    That is implying that if we left they wouldn't want to trade with us anymore, which as I said before would be more of a disadvantage to them than us. The top three economies in the world have done well and they aren't in the EU, but they do trade with them and that's what we should do.
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    (Original post by Wolf11)
    The reason we are the "the fastest growing economy in the world and the sixth largest in the world" is partly because we have great access to EU and have the bps. Financial and technological corporations overseas simply won't have as much incentive to invest in UK as there'll be less links to the whole of EU. Also, less customers - the UK might not be the hub of diversity anymore - as there will be less immigrants coming here and spending.
    Civitas' recent research found that we don't really get any more investment from the EU than non-EU members like Norway or Switzerland, while we get far less from non-EU investors who don't want to get tied up in all the EU regulations.
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    Regarding post 19 I would acknowledge the possibility of the UK and France (though I still it's unlikely) but i'm not nearly as convinced that Spain will leave, the Euro-skeptics could not even come first and second. Additionally, while their is an impact from countries leaving, it is countries leaving the Euro-zone which have a larger effect (anybody thinking the EU is going to collapse should the UK leave is living in dream land - it would be possible if larger countries like Italy and France went though). I'm also not convinced that Germany would disband the project, the skeptics barely managed 10%, Germans may not like paying but they appear to like being powerful given Merkel's election results.

    It's entirely right though that we'd get free trade, despite leaning 'In' myself their talking rubbish when they say they won't. That being said their will also be a hit from less new job creation from EU countries (especially as our regulatory regimes diverge) and also less future investment from EU firms. The big question will be whether more jobs and investment from overseas can more than make up for that.
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    (Original post by RFowler)
    I don't fully understand the argument made by people on this thread that "if we leave the EU, we still have to abide by EU regulations but have no say in those regulations".

    Surely we'd only have to obey regulations for exporting to Europe - like sticking to EU safety standards when designing and making cars. Or sticking to EU food safety regulations for food products. Because we couldn't, for example, export cars to Europe if the design doesn't meet EU regulations.

    Surely we would not have to obey other EU regulations not related to stuff we export, like EU immigration rules or justice system? Or am I missing something?
    The EU puts out a lot of wide ranging economic regulation that we'd still have to comply with even if were just EEA (we'd have to apply about 25% of current EU law versus the near 100% now). Cameron however (and I generally agree with him here) would likely keep us in the justice part, and in EFTA with free movement as now so their are legislative savings, but less of them.

    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    Civitas' recent research found that we don't really get any more investment from the EU than non-EU members like Norway or Switzerland, while we get far less from non-EU investors who don't want to get tied up in all the EU regulations.
    That's interesting although both countries I believe are even more dependent on the EU than we are in trade terms and while not officially in the EU, their about as close to it as you can possibly be. I question whether their non-EU status really matters to a company wanting to invest in the EU. Now you could make the argument for the UK being treated this way, but if one supports the arguments from the right, they want our regulations and policies in general to differ significantly with a far more detached relation than Norway.

    The second part is very interesting and i'll have to have a read. The perception i'd got from the media before was actually the opposite (i.e. companies invested here because they want access to the EU but get the bonus of the flexibility that arises from our non-EU membership). Indeed even if that part is true, do the number of these companies offset those who want to be in EU.
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    (Original post by AdamQ)
    UKIP are a bunch of fruitcakes, loonies and now not so closet racists, so no I bloody won't vote UKIP.

    PS. What you should be saying is: "Think gay people cause floods? Vote UKIP. Think Lenny Henry should be deported? Vote UKIP. Bit of an idiot? Vote UKIP!"
    Try coming up with your own insults please.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Don't they still have to abide by all the rules and regulations in order to trade... without having a say in what those rules are?

    That doesn't sound like a good deal.
    That's not quite true. Norway is invited to meetings and has a veto over a wide array of EU rules. It's a myth Norway is dictated to. Watch a Norwegian government minister explain their relationship in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwXhe-LIbQE
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    I don't think the UK should be celebrating the Australian immigration policy what with them being in hot water with the UN and other organisations over the handing over of asylum seekers and refugees in the middle of the ocean and the rather awful treatment of those who do make it.
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    (Original post by Jacob-C)
    We are the fastest growing economy in the world and the sixth largest in the world, why would anyone want to stop investing here? The UK also imports more goods from the EU than we give to it, so if they did stop trading with us then it would be a significant disadvantage to them financially.


    .
    Britain gets a lot of EU imports and exports because its so easy to do business. I send some of my goods to France and Germany and never have to worry about delays with customs or have to pay duty as I would with things I send and receive to and from the US. It would be great if the UK had the same free trade agreement with the US as the EU, I would be able to do business much easier and expand into the US a lot easier.

    If Britain leaves the EU, I would have to do a lot more paper work, mess about with customs and worry about goods being delayed. As a small business, it would put me at a big disadvantage compared to a big business who would have a department to deal with overseas business.

    If Britain leaves the EU, both imports and exports would be more difficult, more time consuming and more expensive. Thats not a good way to promote business.
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    (Original post by Wolf11)
    The reason we are the "the fastest growing economy in the world and the sixth largest in the world" is partly because we have great access to EU and have the bps. Financial and technological corporations overseas simply won't have as much incentive to invest in UK as there'll be less links to the whole of EU. Also, less customers - the UK might not be the hub of diversity anymore - as there will be less immigrants coming here and spending.
    We already have the most diverse multi-cultural country in the world how much more do we need? I don't agree with UKIP the fact they are essentially a closet racist party. But leaving the EU allows the UK to have its own control over what laws to make, we don't have to live by any laws made in Brussels by people who have never experienced a single day in Britain we at least need the ability to choose our immigration an trade laws for ourselves not made by someone else. Atm it's like the EU is a controlling parent and we are a little child that just has to listen to everything they say whether we like it or not. Like mentioned it's the 6th largest economy in the world with our own control that could possibly even improve into a top 5 place with both Russia and Japan's economies shrinking
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    (Original post by Sanctimonious)
    Who said that? Talk about going off on a tangent. Funny how so many other non EU countries have deals with the EU block but they are not members of the EU.

    http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/polic...e/index_en.htm

    Even if our economy halved in terms of GDP (it wouldn't) we would still have a GDP comparable to Mexico, a country that has a FTA with the EU.

    Tell me more about Chile's GDP? Oh wait....still has a FTA with the EU.

    Funnily enough France or Spain will probably be the first to go. Given Frances anti Semitic party rise, Front National, I'd go with them exiting.

    Germany, the UK, France and Italy are the 4 largest economies in the EU. Spain, another country heading towards exit is the 5th.

    If France pull out the EU zone economy in terms of GDP takes a $2.6trn hit. If we pull out that's another $2.4trn hit. That's $5trn. This is very likely given the current trends of Euroscepticism.

    The EU in terms of GDP then stands at $12trn. Spain pull out. The EU then loses another $1.4trn. That leaves the EU on $10.6trn. A lot weaker than it originally was in terms of economic power and bargaining.

    By the way germany is now having to support the other countries in Europe due to other countries like the UK, France and Spain pulling out. Unlikely to happen and the EU would likely collapse. Germany would not be interested in propping up the other countries alone.

    If it didnt the EU would go from the first largest economy in terms of GDP to the second and only slightly ahead of China. It would be much weaker without us, France and Spain in it in terms of GDP.

    There's also nothing stopping us, France and Spain setting up a Western Europe Economic Alliance with our own rules to suit such as no free movement with a combined GDP of around $6.4trn.

    As an alliance we would be the 4th largest joint economic block in the world, ahead of Germany and other countries like Japan and we would have own rules.

    The three countries of the five main countries threatening to leave the EU would leave it significantly weaker and probably lead to Germany and Italy saying no more and ending the project or breaking it down.

    The simple fact is with every country with a strong economy that leaves the EU the block itself gets significantly weaker and favours us in terms of negotiating and so on. Just us leaving alone makes the EU fall behind the USA in terms of GDP. That would be a massive blow to them in terms of international bargaining power and their trading partners may start to worry that another large EU economy may pull out and so forth.

    The UK economy would probably take an initial hit in terms of the economy but it would not be as bad as Clegg would like you to think.
    Then shouldn't we be waiting for France and Spain to go first. What if they change their mind after we're gone?
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    Well it looks we will leave before given we have a vote on it in 2017 ( the day after my 18th so I can vote on it) which will decide I we stay in or leve
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    (Original post by Sanctimonious)
    "The Aussies have a points system
    So does the UK.
    They say if you have a life threatening disease, I'm sorry but we can't accommodate you.
    We have the right to refuse entry to any EU citizen who poses a threat to public health.
    They say if you have a serious criminal record we won't have you...
    We have the right to refuse EU citizens on such grounds.

    What they also say is we don't care whether you're black or white or yellow or what your religion is but if you come to our country and you come here to take citizenship you become part of us and you become part of our Australian dream, namely the integrationist message. That is exactly what we should be doing."
    We are doing it.

    I would like to know what point Farage is trying to make here.
 
 
 
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