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    (Original post by PhysicsKid)
    You abstained last time. Has the Liberal pendulum swung massively to neoliberalism- or is just reflecting the national trend?
    I can't speak for my party colleagues, but my support for this has increased following last week's strikes.

    We don't whip, so Liberal MPs will vote how they like on this.
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    No - this country is doing its best to get rid of trade unions and we can't stand for it. We need to get more people into unions not less, and curbing their powers won't help.

    As for the turnouts not one of the current cabinet would be in, never mind the new police and crime commissioners some of whom were elected on less than 5% of people voting for them, if a 50% turnout or 50% yes yote was imposed.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    No - this country is doing its best to get rid of trade unions and we can't stand for it. We need to get more people into unions not less, and curbing their powers won't help.

    As for the turnouts not one of the current cabinet would be in, never mind the new police and crime commissioners some of whom were elected on less than 5% of people voting for them, if a 50% turnout or 50% yes yote was imposed.
    That is nothing but an incorrect smokescreen. Elections in the UK are inclusive- those effected can vote, so if you don't vote you are effectively 'abstaining'. However Union Ballots are exclusive- the public who are affected can't vote. Two completely different things.

    As for the cabinet thing, you will find that most (if not all) had 50% of the electorate in their constituency vote for them. However the shadow cabinet does have the problem you describe, including the slimy shadow chancellor.



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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    That is nothing but an incorrect smokescreen. Elections in the UK are inclusive- those effected can vote, so if you don't vote you are effectively 'abstaining'. However Union Ballots are exclusive- the public who are affected can't vote. Two completely different things.

    As for the cabinet thing, you will find that most (if not all) had 50% of the electorate in their constituency vote for them. However the shadow cabinet does have the problem you describe, including the slimy shadow chancellor.



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    Uh given voter turnout is <50% I somehow doubt over 50% of their constituents voted for them.

    And no, they are not completely different. Anyone can join a union and vote for or against a strike.
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    I would like to see the proposals of the 1969 White Paper 'In Place of Strife' instead of all this, with the addition of something re zero hours contracts (non-exclusive, only allowed if those in the firm who are directors have one).
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    Also, technically speaking, no one is forced to join a union or strike when they call for one. Thus this is free will carried out by the people, so is again, more democratic than you are giving it credit for.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    I would like to see the proposals of the 1969 White Paper 'In Place of Strife' instead of all this, with the addition of something re zero hours contracts (non-exclusive, only allowed if those in the firm who are directors have one).
    Hum maybe Solom and Binding did not go far enough but I think that the 1981 and 1983 Emplyment Acts were good for the time but not we need to reform them and this repealment would do so.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Uh given voter turnout is <50% I somehow doubt over 50% of their constituents voted for them.

    And no, they are not completely different. Anyone can join a union and vote for or against a strike.
    Look it up. Historically it is Labour constituencies with lower turnout in GEs. Also turnout at last GE was 65.1%. Nice maths skills.

    Nope, I am pretty sure you can't join NUT if you have nothing to do with teaching. Furthermore, you have to pay to join many unions, something which in these times most people can't afford.


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    Sorry if I am being daft, but what does this actually do? I am honestly unaware of the legal status concerning trade unions in the UK and would like know more before I make a decision. The act that this bill seeks to repeal already repealed an unknown set of laws concerning trade unions and allowed companies to hire less people for temporary work, if I understand it correctly. Does it mean that while the existing act caused deregulation, this one would reinstate the former laws, which are…? What exactly?

    Could you please abstract the key elementary issues covered by these bills?

    I have always considered trade unions to be vile organisations with hardly any support, using widely damaging means of protest, and with strong evidence suggesting that their leaders were being paid off by employers to control the working class masses by creating the false impression of unity against oppression, yet never reaching the full potential.

    On the other hand, I recognise that the working class does not have adequate work conditions and that the gap between the rich and the poor widens continually which negatively impacts the economy because the purchasing power decreases. I would very much fancy a change that would redistribute the wealth from footballers (generally sportsmen), actors, politicians, and celebrities in general – all those unnecessary professions that get paid for hardly any work and contribute next to nothing to the society, unlike a postman or a garbage man, for instance – to the ones who create real values and whom this society depends on but, unfortunately, labels them as easily replaceable.

    Thanks.

    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    Look it up. Historically it is Labour constituencies with lower turnout in GEs. Also turnout at last GE was 65.1%. Nice maths skills.

    Nope, I am pretty sure you can't join NUT if you have nothing to do with teaching. Furthermore, you have to pay to join many unions, something which in these times most people can't afford.


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    So that still means they didn't get 50%? So I was right?

    No but there are plenty of other unions you can join. And pay in most is graded based on your wage to make it affordable to everyone. Except GMB which is a flat rate.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    So that still means they didn't get 50%? So I was right?

    No but there are plenty of other unions you can join. And pay in most is graded based on your wage to make it affordable to everyone. Except GMB which is a flat rate.
    Most of the cabinet was elected by 50% of their electorate voting for them. However that is not the case with the shadow cabinet.

    But you couldn't vote to stop the NUT, who are the main cause of disruption.




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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    Most of the cabinet was elected by 50% of their electorate voting for them. However that is not the case with the shadow cabinet.

    But you couldn't vote to stop the NUT, who are the main cause of disruption.




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    Figures please? I believe Gideon only got 51% of a 60% turnout so uh, around 30% of the vote?

    Well you see unions tend to consult with each other, strikes are coordinated between them not seperateley.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Figures please? I believe Gideon only got 51% of a 60% turnout so uh, around 30% of the vote?

    Well you see unions tend to consult with each other, strikes are coordinated between them not seperateley.
    Ah but like like Trade Unions you hardly see the Conservative Party go out on strike.

    Look TU votes are exclusive unlike GE where everyone can vote. I say everyone but this obviously includes those of the right age and criteria (not a prisoner, lord or nutty)
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Figures please? I believe Gideon only got 51% of a 60% turnout so uh, around 30% of the vote?

    Well you see unions tend to consult with each other, strikes are coordinated between them not seperateley.
    55% of a 71% turnout (39%) Please use Wikipedia before making yourself look silly in future. Ed Balls however got 37% of a 65% turnout, which is 24% of the electorate. Ed Miliband got 47% of a 57% turnout (27%), while David Cameron got 59% of a 73% turnout which was 43% of the electorate.


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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    55% of a 71% turnout (39%) Please use Wikipedia before making yourself look silly in future. Ed Balls however got 37% of a 65% turnout, which is 24% of the electorate. Ed Miliband got 47% of a 57% turnout (27%), while David Cameron got 59% of a 73% turnout which was 43% of the electorate.


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    So uh, they all got less than 50%? Which was precisely my point?
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    (Original post by Will95206)
    Ah but like like Trade Unions you hardly see the Conservative Party go out on strike.

    Look TU votes are exclusive unlike GE where everyone can vote. I say everyone but this obviously includes those of the right age and criteria (not a prisoner, lord or nutty)
    But if everyone joined a union they could vote for or against strike action and liase with other unions. Its not an exclusive club (unlike the conservative party...) Anyone can join the TUC
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    (Original post by redferry)
    So uh, they all got less than 50%? Which was precisely my point?
    Ok, yes. But the difference still remains that union ballots are exclusive and GE/Local voting is inclusive. Massive difference.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    So uh, they all got less than 50%? Which was precisely my point?
    That is the nature if electing a democratically elected representative under first past the post. However the strikes are in effect a members only referendum on striking and it tends to be only the radical and hard line and often militant trade Unionist who turn up to vote and are trying to bring down an nation wide democratically elected government.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    But if everyone joined a union they could vote for or against strike action and liase with other unions. Its not an exclusive club (unlike the conservative party...) Anyone can join the TUC
    That might be so but why join a Union? If you have no need to have your right represented in the work force why would you join one? Secondly political parties are if course exclusive and that is what they are for. However anyone can join a political party if they pay the membership fee and not removed.
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    (Original post by Will95206)
    That is the nature if electing a democratically elected representative under first past the post. However the strikes are in effect a members only referendum on striking and it tends to be only the radical and hard line and often militant trade Unionist who turn up to vote and are trying to bring down an nation wide democratically elected government.
    Or so you would like to believe. Maybe you should attend meetings yourself and you would see the vast majority are just normal people worried about their job security and quality of life. The trade unions in this country have 6 million members, are you trying to say that two million of them are militants? Do you really think the other 4 million would hang around if they were?

    84% of the general public think public sector workers have a good reason for striking, to say only 'militants' want to strike shows just so out of touch you truly are.
 
 
 
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