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Re-Negotiating with the EU = Batman negotiating with the Riddler Watch

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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Having open borders is morally wrong.
    Why?
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    (Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
    First, I don't care about improving their economy.

    Second, wage suppression.
    Blame the companies that employ people on crap wages, not the people who are trying to earn a living.
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    (Original post by Lord Baelish)
    The information I gave was from fullfact that did full research into it during the debates between Clegg and Farage to distinguish the truth.

    Its from here: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu_make_uk_law-29587
    Yes, but it's comparing apples to oranges; the EU produces mountains of regulations. But simply counting them up and comparing them to the ones produced by the UK isn't a sensible analysis. What's important is the things that those regulations do.

    So European regulations tend to do things such as enforce the amount of pollen that should be in honey, or the agreed system of regulation on the disposal of slurry.

    British Parliament regulations are considerably more important and powerful, such as setting tuition fees, managing immigration and security, personal data bases, child education provisions, supercasinos, fracking, the Green Deal, and so on.

    The EU could produce a million regulations tomorrow on the definition of a sausage; the UK Parliament could easily produce one Act of Parliament declaring sausages to be weapons of mass destruction.
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    (Original post by Lord Baelish)
    Did you even read the information in the source provided because it says this quite openly.

    I just disagreed with your notion that we do make our own laws. No we do not make all of our own laws. Let's distinguish facts.

    The very first bullet point.

    'Simply counting laws does not consider that some laws have more impact than others.'

    Of this I don't disagree. However I do disagree with any of our laws being decided at EU level. That's my own opinion. Each to their own.
    Well I never denied the EU does make some of our laws. But that's what EU membership has always implied. Objecting to it simply because it's Brussels is akin to Essex objecting to laws passed in Westminster that Essex-people dislike, and wanting to withdraw from the UK because of it.

    We are free to do that, and perhaps the UK will eventually leave, but to get upset (as the OP did) that we have to work within the rules seems rather silly.

    You're free to object to the UK's membership of the EU and I respect that, but it does seem that there are many on the 'leave' side that deliberately twist facts to their own ends.
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    (Original post by Lord Baelish)
    There are people on both sides doing that and its getting annoying. There are pros and cons to EU membership and depending on what you value in life this will help shape your attitude to the EU.
    I don't find much to disagree with there
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Well I never denied the EU does make some of our laws. But that's what EU membership has always implied. Objecting to it simply because it's Brussels is akin to Essex objecting to laws passed in Westminster that Essex-people dislike, and wanting to withdraw from the UK because of it.

    We are free to do that, and perhaps the UK will eventually leave, but to get upset (as the OP did) that we have to work within the rules seems rather silly.

    You're free to object to the UK's membership of the EU and I respect that, but it does seem that there are many on the 'leave' side that deliberately twist facts to their own ends.
    Essex will rise against the unelected bureaucrats in Westminster.

    Independance for Essex!!
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Blame the companies that employ people on crap wages, not the people who are trying to earn a living.
    Companies have a duty to their shareholders and will pay the market rate.

    Governments have a duty to their peoples, unrestricted immigration has distorted the market.

    The Government has the moral duty, not business, and the Government is entirely to blame.
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    (Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
    Companies have a duty to their shareholders and will pay the market rate.

    Governments have a duty to their peoples, unrestricted immigration has distorted the market.

    The Government has the moral duty, not business, and the Government is entirely to blame.
    Splendid! So you would support the government enforcing a statutory minimum wage considerably higher than present? That would sort out the problem, surely?
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Why?
    do you let random people into your house and let them help themselves to tea and biscuits ?
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    do you let random people into your house and let them help themselves to tea and biscuits ?
    Having boarders is morally wrong. We should not stop people moving due to things happened hundreds of years ago

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    (Original post by gladders)
    Splendid! So you would support the government enforcing a statutory minimum wage considerably higher than present? That would sort out the problem, surely?
    I'd support it if the Government had conducted a thorough investigation to calculate the number of lost jobs due to the rise in employment costs and set the minimum wage at the maximal level whilst still minimising unemployment, yes.
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    (Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
    I'd support it if the Government had conducted a thorough investigation to calculate the number of lost jobs due to the rise in employment costs and set the minimum wage at the maximal level whilst still minimising unemployment, yes.
    That therefore means that business is an independent actor that has a role to play, and therefore it is not the sole responsibility of the Government. They are responsible social actors too, and they could make their jobs more appealing to locals.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    That therefore means that business is an independent actor that has a role to play, and therefore it is not the sole responsibility of the Government. They are responsible social actors too, and they could make their jobs more appealing to locals.
    It neither implies nor infers any such responsibility to businesses.
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    Well regardless, I object to your claim that it's entirely a government matter - business has a role to play.
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    If UKIP made more nerdy comic book references, I might actually vote for them.
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    (Original post by Beechey)
    Don't even think it's that - isn't it to just lower immigration levels to around 50,000 per year?
    They rarely go for specific figures. They'd aim to have immigration restricted to mostly high-demand skilled immigrants (doctors, nurses or whatever else we're short of) or those who'd already secured jobs and had funds to support themselves in the event of losing said jobs.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Really ? So can we refuse to allow unlimited bulgarians and romanians in the country ? Or even an unlimited amount of Polish ?

    Will we stop Albanians and Turks coming here when Albania and Turkey join the EU ?

    Or is this out of our control ?
    Just to allay your fears somewhat, Turkey will never join the EU. There's no reason the EU would want them in. They're a proud muslim nation with a strong culture and a great belief in their own constitution. They're exactly the last thing the Eurofederalists want, as they'll act as another bar to a united European state. It is far more beneficial short term for the EU to keep stringing the Turkish people along with false promises and absurd demands because it allows the EU to get favorable terms on trade in the meantime, but they'll never actually let the Turkish in.

    Personally, I think that's a pretty disgusting way to treat one of our most staunch and valuable allies, a nation which guarded our flank against the threat of the USSR for much of the last century, and upon which we will depend to guard our flank against the threat of radicalised islamic states for much of the next century.
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    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    Just to allay your fears somewhat, Turkey will never join the EU. There's no reason the EU would want them in. They're a proud muslim nation with a strong culture and a great belief in their own constitution. They're exactly the last thing the Eurofederalists want, as they'll act as another bar to a united European state. It is far more beneficial short term for the EU to keep stringing the Turkish people along with false promises and absurd demands because it allows the EU to get favorable terms on trade in the meantime, but they'll never actually let the Turkish in.
    That's just a theory, which may be true. We can't trust what they will do .
    In fact that just shows how mean and dishonest the EU are if they are going to string along an entire country and manipulate them just for some trade deals (what trade deals ?? )

    Lots of Turks hope to join, they will feel disappointed if they have been played with all this time.

    If they are stringing Turkey along, who else are they screwing around ? Maybe us ?

    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    Personally, I think that's a pretty disgusting way to treat one of our most staunch and valuable allies, a nation which guarded our flank against the threat of the USSR for much of the last century, and upon which we will depend to guard our flank against the threat of radicalised islamic states for much of the next century.
    What we should have done to Poland is say, we will let in 100,000, and the first 100,000 to come are the ones we let in. No more allowed. That sounds like a fair amount. Instead of allowing maybe...3 or 4 million in .


    Foreign Secretary David Miliband has suggested the European Union should work towards including Russia, Middle Eastern and North African countries.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7095657.stm

    And what about the Barcelona Agreement ? the eus dirty secret to get North Africa into the EU
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    That's just a theory, which may be true. We can't trust what they will do .
    In fact that just shows how mean and dishonest the EU are if they are going to string along an entire country and manipulate them just for some trade deals (what trade deals ?? )

    Lots of Turks hope to join, they will feel disappointed if they have been played with all this time.

    If they are stringing Turkey along, who else are they screwing around ? Maybe us ?



    What we should have done to Poland is say, we will let in 100,000, and the first 100,000 to come are the ones we let in. No more allowed. That sounds like a fair amount. Instead of allowing maybe...3 or 4 million in .


    Foreign Secretary David Miliband has suggested the European Union should work towards including Russia, Middle Eastern and North African countries.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7095657.stm

    And what about the Barcelona Agreement ? the eus dirty secret to get North Africa into the EU
    David Milliband is not the Foreign secretary any more. He's not even an MP any more. As to random numbers based immigration, that's a terrible way to work it. We should allow economic migration based on what our economy needs, taking the best people for the jobs regardless of their country of origin.
 
 
 
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