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State school kids are less intelligent than other types. Discuss. Watch

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    (Original post by Le Nombre)
    No college requires that from its students, even the top ones like Hills Rd, PSC, Winstanley and Greenhead (which does select from non-feeders, but it's more like straight A GCSE to get in, though a lot have straight A*) don't ask for 8 A*.

    So you meant non-selective maintained schools? Or comprehensives as they have been known since the mid-50s.

    Obviously schools which academically select have a more academically able cohort than ones that don't, and indeed, legally, can't.

    However, if you took some random middle of the road private school which can't select due to financial pressures the average intelligence would probably be very similar to that at Boggo Comp.
    I meant that without top grades one wouldn't have a chance at getting into those unis.

    Both yep. That point is true.

    I doubt it, from hearing the grades and caliber of students that go to my friends school - I very much doubt it.

    Maybe I just live around poor non-selective maintained schools :teehee:


    (Original post by redferry)
    Private school kids are actually less intelligent, they have a lot more help to get their grades and with their uni applications, and this is clearly shown by the fact state schoolers do better at uni.


    I'm not saying everyone at private school is stupider than everyone at state school, but that your average state schooler at uni is cleverer than your average private schooler at uni.


    Cue pissy private school kids not admitting their privelage and getting mad that I pointed out people from state school have to put in far more effort to get the same grades/into uni.
    Are you referring this to me?

    If so then how come the majority of students admitted to Imperial, LSE, Ivies etc. are foreign.

    Do you mean real uni's, like top 6. Or inclusive of mickey mouse unis.
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    No. I was asked by a kid from public school how to spell 'because' while the kids from state school were all fine. Just because your parents are rich does not mean you are automatically clever.
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    State school students entering university with the same grades as their private school counter-parts do better:

    Bristol:
    http://www.theguardian.com/education...ils-university

    Warwick:
    http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...109621.article

    Cardiff, Oxford Brookes:
    http://www.theguardian.com/education...rivate-schools

    HEFCE:
    http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news...ree-passes-at/

    I also know that in Nottingham, state school students are 50% more likely to get a first, and do better on average, than their private school counter-parts with the same entry grades.

    It makes sense when you think about it. Private school students do better in their A Levels on average, presumably as a combination of entry standards and resourcing. When students get to university, state/private school students are on an equal footing - they all have the same access to resources, some financial course costs aside. State school students are suddenly given access to a much greater level of resourcing and support than they had in school compared to their private school counter-parts and thus are more able to reach their potential than before.

    Basically, A Level grades don't tell anywhere near the full story; which is why it's disappointing that David Willetts was so determined to run Student Number Controls to push those not achieving AAB/ABB out of education through forced quotas. It's disappointing that UCAS points on entry plays such a big part in university league tables. It's disappointing that even when leaving university graduate recruiters often require certain A Level grades even if you were top of your university class.

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    (Original post by Damien_Dalgaard)

    Excellent point, yep :yep:

    Well done, for doing well for yourself Did you get a 100% scholarship?

    Can I ask you, do you think that you would have done better in your exams if you had went to a better school?
    Ah thanks 50% scholarship and 50% bursary I think.

    To be honest I don't think I would have done. I'm such a competitive person, I sort of just wanted to prove that I could do it, as teachers always used to tell me I wouldn't achieve anything. Personally I think that people at 'worse' schools, who have maybe experienced hardship/poverty in their lives tend to be much more driven. At my current sixth form, most of the people are absolutely lovely, but there is a sense of 'Oh well, if I don't get a good job I can just ask Daddy for help.' Obviously that's not the case with everyone but there is a sense of complacency; a sense that achieving high doesn't matter, and that doesn't seem to happen at state schools.
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    (Original post by squeakysquirrel)
    I'll tell you what it is - private school pupils are spoon fed more and because of smaller classes are given more time as individuals. A bright state school kid has to achieve the same but more on their own - so arguably the state school pupil is brighter.

    I have had experience of both systems - private for primary, state for secondary and my sister in law sent all 4 of her kids to private schools.

    Her eldest did OK and got to a decent university with 3 Bs at A level. Her second got CCC after 4 years of A levels, her third has just failed his GCSE English for the second time and got mainly Bs and Cs for the rest of them. The 4th is just about to start GCSEs so we will await the outcome.

    My eldest at a state school got decent results and went to a Russell Group, my second studied physics at Russell Group - A*AB; and my youngest is studying maths at a Russell Group A*A*A. What she tells me is that the private school pupils struggle at uni because they are no longer being spoon fed.

    There are a heck of a lot of very stupid private school kids around who are only in that school because their parents have money

    So on the 11+ are there some kids who only get in because daddy can afford the fees.

    Fair enough, but did your kids go to high achieving, selective-stae schools.
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    Well, they certainly are by the end of their school education.
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    (Original post by Damien_Dalgaard)
    Is it true that state(meaning here average comps and below, excluding grammar) school students academically are less able than private/grammar/boarding/private candidates.

    I am classifying grammar schools to be separate to state, i.e. King Edwards, Colchester Grammar go under grammar and not state.

    Also not including schools like K12 and those that have high entry requirements for students i.e. Hills etc.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ults-2013.html

    Obviously I know of some users in particular here, who are extremely smart and go to state comps, but on the whole state=worse :yep: Big picture guys.

    Also plz none of the James Dyson, Alan Sugar responses - talking about the current crop, plus those entrepreneurs had great ideas anyway.

    Discuss.
    Where I live, there are fancy private schools which are actually totally **** - I know some expupils at my sixth form who left without a Maths or English GCSE despite their parents paying big £££ to send them their

    On the whole though, state schools are typically bound to do worse than private schools - but that's not to do with individual intelligence. With the money pouring in, private schools can invest in better resources and teachers, have smaller classroom sizes which is well known to be a good factor in achievements, and I'm pretty sure can expel bad students more easily (as they won't be as controlled by the government as easily like state schools) which improves results statistically + can make classroom environments nicer. Plus, there'll be more pressure from parents stereotypically - I know if I was spending thousands on my child to attend a school, I'd be very keen to make sure they're achieving, by both pressuring the child and the school for results. PLUS the type of parents who are able to send their children to private schools will be more likely to be educated themselves, so kids will be more likely to have grown up in an academic background.

    Meanwhile, state students have to suffer from government funding, a compulsion of keeping kids in school, possibly being from backgrounds where education isn't seen as that important which doesn't encourage kids to achieve. I think its important to point out that state schools as a whole don't do badly - it really depends where the state school is. I've been state educated right from nursery to sixth form, but I've gone to schools in middle class areas, where lots of kids from educated families go to, thus I've found my education adequate. Schools in poorer areas tend to do even worse; they don't attract better teachers, they don't attract middle class students who tend to do better, they have historically not attracted that much government funding as its based on the results that schools achieves (there are schemes now trying to improve it, but there's still a systematic problem that's not going to go overnight)

    Basically, the gap between achievements in state and private schools is nothing more than a class gap. It doesn't reflect the potential of an individual student's original intelligence, just the way they were brought up and their socio-economic position.

    tl;dr: no.
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    Some state school kids are less intelligent than some other types*
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    (Original post by Damien_Dalgaard)


    Are you referring this to me?

    If so then how come the majority of students admitted to Imperial, LSE, Ivies etc. are foreign.

    Do you mean real uni's, like top 6. Or inclusive of mickey mouse unis.
    Because they pay more so there is little incentive for the Uni to encourage home students.

    I mean all Unis.Including Oxbridge, Bristol, Cardiff...those are the three studies that came up from google.

    See DarkWhite's post above.
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    (Original post by Damien_Dalgaard)
    So on the 11+ are there some kids who only get in because daddy can afford the fees.

    Fair enough, but did your kids go to high achieving, selective-stae schools.
    Private school tests generally aren't the 11+, but, if its anything like grammar schools (one of which I attended) then a significant number of people get in because their parents can afford to tutor their children through the test.
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    (Original post by Sazzy890)
    Not receiving a good education does not equate to being unintelligent. Intelligence is to do with the capacity to learn, not the quality of education. I bet if you put an intelligent state school student in a good school, their grades would go up.
    True, but grammar schools tend to admit the ones who are more intelligent, so the average grammar school student would be more intelligent. I don't want to say a lot of state schoolers (but it was a significant portion at my school), but a decent amount were not intelligent which seemed to be because of their background and upbringing. I wouldn't expect those at private schools and grammar schools to have this 'upbringing'.
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    (Original post by AstroNandos)
    True, but grammar schools tend to admit the ones who are more intelligent, so the average grammar school student would be more intelligent. I don't want to say a lot of state schoolers (but it was a significant portion at my school), but a decent amount were not intelligent which seemed to be because of their background and upbringing. I wouldn't expect those at private schools and grammar schools to have this 'upbringing'.
    I don't think this is necessarily true. Kids that go to private primary schools receive tutoring for the 11+ at school whereas at state primary schools, they don't (well this is my experience anyway). Also parents with money will be able to afford tutoring outside of school.
    Since the 11+ tests things like verbal reasoning which to my awareness isn't taught at state primary schools (it certainly wasn't taught at my school, nor any of the schools in the surrounding area), this makes it extremely difficult (if not near impossible) for state schooled kids to get into grammar schools with no tutoring at all.

    Also at this age, its almost 100% down to the parents. If they aren't clued up enough to enter their kids for the 11+ then they won't go to a grammar school no matter how intelligent their kids are.
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    I go to a state school myself, however have friends who go to private schools. In my area anyway, kids who want to achieve but may not be intelligent are put into lower sets with kids who do not want to work at all, and therefore have a negative impact and those around. My friends say that at their private school, the guys who are in lower sets at least want to achieve, whether to impress their parents/friends or they have to work to stay in the school. I think thats the difference between them personally.
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    As Paralove has pointed out, that statement is rather unfair because private and grammar schools have higher entry requirements than state schools and so, the calibre of their students is naturally higher. But also, speaking as a state school student, I think that we're a lot less motivated as we don't have the obligation of putting mummy and daddy's money to good use. Our parents aren't as pushy and aren't prepared to fork out thousands on our education. We have larger class sizes, poorer facilities and fewer opportunities. I don't think there's a fair comparison of intelligence to be made.
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    (Original post by AstroNandos)
    True, but grammar schools tend to admit the ones who are more intelligent, so the average grammar school student would be more intelligent. I don't want to say a lot of state schoolers (but it was a significant portion at my school), but a decent amount were not intelligent which seemed to be because of their background and upbringing. I wouldn't expect those at private schools and grammar schools to have this 'upbringing'.
    I don't think upbringing is relevant to intelligence in itself. You're either intelligent or you're not. Upbringing, however, has an impact on whether you care about learning/bettering yourself and whether you actually get involved and make the effort. If you don't, then your education will suffer, and if your education suffers you will not meet your true potential.

    I don't think it is all to do with intelligence as to whether you get into a grammar school though. Sometimes it is about who you know, your upbringing, your class etc. Though you do have to pass exams to get into the school, however this again depends on the education you had before grammar school and if that was below par, even if you're naturally intelligent, your education will have suffered and as a result you won't do as well on the exams.

    And intelligence is definitely not relevant when you pay for a school. That is to do with your class and your money.
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    some state school students could not get into grammar school due to the distance from home and could not go to private school as we could not afford
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    (Original post by Damien_Dalgaard)
    For unis?
    For private schools. Isn't that the topic of the thread?
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    (Original post by Bloxorus)
    I don't think this is necessarily true. Kids that go to private primary schools receive tutoring for the 11+ at school whereas at state primary schools, they don't (well this is my experience anyway). Also parents with money will be able to afford tutoring outside of school.
    Since the 11+ tests things like verbal reasoning which to my awareness isn't taught at state primary schools (it certainly wasn't taught at my school, nor any of the schools in the surrounding area), this makes it extremely difficult (if not near impossible) for state schooled kids to get into grammar schools with no tutoring at all.

    Also at this age, its almost 100% down to the parents. If they aren't clued up enough to enter their kids for the 11+ then they won't go to a grammar school no matter how intelligent their kids are.
    I would guess that you would need a combination of intelligence and tutoring to pass the 11+. I know of a couple of people who receive lots of help, which one could call tutoring, and they still don't do too well. In my opinion, being intelligent has to be in the equation somewhere.

    I agree with the fact that it's down to the parents too, I speak from experience I received no tutoring and ended up failing my 11+


    (Original post by Sazzy890)
    I don't think upbringing is relevant to intelligence in itself. You're either intelligent or you're not. Upbringing, however, has an impact on whether you care about learning/bettering yourself and whether you actually get involved and make the effort. If you don't, then your education will suffer, and if your education suffers you will not meet your true potential.

    I don't think it is all to do with intelligence as to whether you get into a grammar school though. Sometimes it is about who you know, your upbringing, your class etc. Though you do have to pass exams to get into the school, however this again depends on the education you had before grammar school and if that was below par, even if you're naturally intelligent, your education will have suffered and as a result you won't do as well on the exams.

    And intelligence is definitely not relevant when you pay for a school. That is to do with your class and your money.
    I would say that upbringing is one of the factors that affects intelligence, with natural ability being among those factors. I guess your opinion stems from how you define intelligence. After a quick Google session, Wikipedia says the definition of intelligence is controversial, but using the Google definition of "the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.", I think even tutoring can improve intelligence.

    And I do agree with intelligence not being the key to a grammar school, the key is knowledge. A poor education means you will probably have some sort of lack of knowledge, but knowledge is a necessity in exams, so a poor education means you will do worse in exams and then you'd be less likely to go to a grammar school, no matter how intelligent you are. At least can we agree on some things
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    Read these comments before slating down state school kids. They do better at university.

    "For those from disadvantaged backgrounds - Do these students also hold down a job whilst studying to help cover expenses? It would be interesting to see if the above study also took this into consideration."

    "I was privately educated and really struggled once out of the forced learning environment. I feel my exam results were not reflective of my ability to think but my ability to remember what had been drummed into me. Once out of that environment and having to do for myself I nearly failed my course and the career I wanted. Admittedly this was 30 years ago but I don't think much has changed."
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    93% of pupils go to state schools- the vast majority. Most are in comprehensive schools too. Perhaps they are learning things about how most people live that the vast majority of public school pupils don't. That also has a value and no doubt has bearing on their outlook on life. Education is much more than just exam grades.

    Perhaps the fact that many of our politicians went to single sex/public/prep schools, boarding from a very young age even, cut off from their families, explains some of their lack of affect and their emphasis on status. They are damaged people who can't empathise with those less fortunate materially than themselves and certainly don't know the price of bread.
 
 
 
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