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Woman secretly films men catcalling and confronts them Watch

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    (Original post by FireGarden)
    I didn't say how she should have felt. Which part do you think implied this?
    When you said she was wrong for feeling unsafe right here:

    There's of course a difference between feeling safe and actually being safe. Now catcalling may not be nice because it makes you feel unsafe (and I agree that's totally justified), but the truth is, with or without it, the world isn't much different..
    and here:

    I don't think you addressed the issue I have. Feeling safe is not being safe. So the first paragraph, fair enough, that's not something anyone should have to deal with, but people keeping their mouths shut doesn't stop it.
    (Original post by FireGarden)
    This is all out backwards, to be honest. She could feel as secure as to believe no ill could ever befall her by going outside. That won't stop a rapist. Hence, feeling safe is no benefit when the problem exists. The way I see it goes: Catcalling stops -> she feels safe -> may still be sexually harassed regardless.
    No, ending catcalling it won't 'stop' the rapist. But as I mentioned in my other post responding to DiddyDec's attempt to derail the thread, there are actual consequences to this fear. Cited here: "The long-term impacts include depression, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorder, as well as a reduced sense of safety that can limit earnings, decrease mobility, and interrupt their ability to fully engage with civic life." Also see here. So the catcalling is actually a problem that has consequences in and of itself, quite aside from any sexual assault that it may be followed up with. So if we solve the problem of catcalling there will actually be real positive effects for women in society, even if we haven't yet solved all of the associated underlying problems in one go.

    (Original post by FireGarden)
    I don't believe treating symptoms treats the disease. It's a lot of effort which is, apparently as we see in those videos, not working. Treat the underlying issue and it's all gone.
    Treating the underlying issue is a very, very long, and very difficult process that has taken centuries and will probably take one or two more before it's close to being done. We must continue that process but we must also try and minimise the actual harmful effects of it in reality right now. We can do both. It is not a zero-sum game where we either solve the long-term causes of misogynistic behaviour or we fix the short-term effects of it. Confronting and denouncing street harassment of women will have a measurable positive impact on women's emotional and psychological health and well-being. The fact that we may not be able to fix all of the systemic underlying issues in one go is absolutely no reason why we should not work hard to solve individual important issues that will contribute to that overall victory.
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    (Original post by forfrosne)
    When you said she was wrong for feeling unsafe right here:

    and here:
    Well, I didn't think I was saying she was 'wrong' for feeling any which-way. My point was, you could do everything in your power to feel safer, but unless the world changes, you're not safer.


    No, ending catcalling it won't 'stop' the rapist. But as I mentioned in my other post responding to DiddyDec's attempt to derail the thread, there are actual consequences to this fear. Cited here: "The long-term impacts include depression, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorder, as well as a reduced sense of safety that can limit earnings, decrease mobility, and interrupt their ability to fully engage with civic life." Also see here. So the catcalling is actually a problem that has consequences in and of itself, quite aside from any sexual assault that it may be followed up with. So if we solve the problem of catcalling there will actually be real positive effects for women in society, even if we haven't yet solved all of the associated underlying problems in one go.
    Research by a group specifically concerned with this issue? On one hand, thorough, but on the other, bias. I wouldn't say it's a non-issue as I would have before this thread, but in all realisticness, I'd find it very hard to believe that some women are worried enough about it that it affect their health, unless they already have anxiety related problems. I'd bet that students experience much greater levels of stress which is more acute and sustained during exam season, and the number of people who become ill or suffer significant negative effects is still very low.

    Treating the underlying issue is a very, very long, and very difficult process that has taken centuries and will probably take one or two more before it's close to being done. We must continue that process but we must also try and minimise the actual harmful effects of it in reality right now. We can do both. It is not a zero-sum game where we either solve the long-term causes of misogynistic behaviour or we fix the short-term effects of it. Confronting and denouncing street harassment of women will have a measurable positive impact on women's emotional and psychological health and well-being. The fact that we may not be able to fix all of the systemic underlying issues in one go is absolutely no reason why we should not work hard to solve individual important issues that will contribute to that overall victory.
    Sure. I'm still skeptical about the bold, but y'know, if it's helping the overall goal, it's worth a try.
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    (Original post by forfrosne)
    I'm really sick of how every thread like this ends up. Every time the issue of cat-calling comes up the thread is full of women explaining why it's a serious and very real issue that they deal with on a daily basis and men like you telling them how they should feel about it. Just... stop, listen to what they are saying and take it on board. Don't tell actual victims of this how they ought to feel or respond to them, and don't try and invalidate or de-legitimise their actual experiences of it. These threads about women's issues always become an echo chamber of women with actual experience of the issues at hand being shouted over by men who think they have the right to tell women how they should feel and react to these things, even though they've almost never had these same experiences. I don't pretend to have a complete understanding of the struggles women face, but that's why I don't presume to tell them how they ought to feel about it.
    But that starts from the assumption that it is an issue. Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but if you start from the opposite stand point then your argument is not compelling. Essentially you are saying 'we are correct because we are correct and so you must not understand', which is ridiculous.
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    (Original post by forfrosne)

    No, ending catcalling it won't 'stop' the rapist. But as I mentioned in my other post responding to DiddyDec's attempt to derail the thread, there are actual consequences to this fear. Cited here: "The long-term impacts include depression, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorder, as well as a reduced sense of safety that can limit earnings, decrease mobility, and interrupt their ability to fully engage with civic life." Also see here. So the catcalling is actually a problem that has consequences in and of itself, quite aside from any sexual assault that it may be followed up with. So if we solve the problem of catcalling there will actually be real positive effects for women in society, even if we haven't yet solved all of the associated underlying problems in one go.
    Is this not just an issue with fear? Like, feeling fear of things in general has those consequences, and it is not only women who feel fear in public as a result of actions of strangers. Moreover, despite the fact that women may be correct to feel fear, men are more correct to feel this fear (since they are more likely to be the victim of violent crime), so targeting this one issue of cat calling is redundant.
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    (Original post by forfrosne)
    We aren't talking about violent crime though, we're talking about public harassment and sexual assault. And if we're going to bring statistics into this, between 70-99% of all women experience street harassment at some point in their life.

    The consequences? "The long-term impacts include depression, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorder, as well as a reduced sense of safety that can limit earnings, decrease mobility, and interrupt their ability to fully engage with civic life."

    On top of that if you look at the compilation of research they use there's another conclusion: "Gallup data from surveys in 143 countries in 2011 show that in those countries, including Italy, France, Australia, and the U.S., men are considerably more likely than women to say they feel safe walking alone at night in their communities."
    We are talking about the UK, the statistics you have quoted actually say for England (more specifically London) that 43% of women aged between 16-34 had experienced some form of street harassment. That is a long way from 70%-99% of women.

    In my books sexual assault is a violent crime. The consequences of all violent crime, sexual or not are exactly the same. They are not limited to sexual assault or harassment.

    Men do feel safer but in reality they are actually in more danger than their female counterparts. So the fear that females have about walking alone is irrational, especially in broad day light.
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    1) If this is a problem because of fear then fine, that is an issue we should address. All people in public should feel safe. But not specifically women specifically about this issue. Most violent crime does is not associated with cat calling.

    2) If this is a problem because of sexism, then yes, there are sexist people. There are lots of stupid people, and they do stupid things and have stupid beliefs. However, beyond saying things on the streets these are rarely people with actual institutional power. This is like, the opposite of the patriarchy. Men in positions without power cat call women, and women (in this case a middle class woman) get offended. I do not think this is good, but like, it is not an issue I care about at all relative to most things. It undermines the legitimacy of the gender equality movement to focus on this, when there is actual power disparity elsewhere.

    (plus, I should point out, if these men had harassed me (a male), and I had challenged them, I would have been in much more danger than she was, as a woman, just sayin')

    3) I cannot think of why else this would be a problem, so Ima leave now.
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    (Original post by FireGarden)
    Research by a group specifically concerned with this issue? On one hand, thorough, but on the other, bias. I wouldn't say it's a non-issue as I would have before this thread, but in all realisticness, I'd find it very hard to believe that some women are worried enough about it that it affect their health, unless they already have anxiety related problems. I'd bet that students experience much greater levels of stress which is more acute and sustained during exam season, and the number of people who become ill or suffer significant negative effects is still very low.
    But again you've got no experience of this at all. You don't deal with this on a daily basis. I just pointed you to actual scientific research demonstrating the existence of these negative health effects and your response was to try and diminish the actual experiences of women by throwing out a BS hypothetical with no actual evidence to support it. Bet on it if you like, but you'd be wrong and it's incredibly offensive and demeaning to compare real fear of street harassment and sexual assault to exam stress.

    (Original post by tysonmaniac)
    But that starts from the assumption that it is an issue. Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but if you start from the opposite stand point then your argument is not compelling. Essentially you are saying 'we are correct because we are correct and so you must not understand', which is ridiculous.
    It's not an assumption that this is an issue, it's the recognition of the fact that this is an issue; There's no opinion in there. There is evidence that A) This issue is widespead and B) This issue has serious ramifications for psychological/mental health and emotional development, even aside from the potential it has to create further misogyny and lead to far worse crimes against women. I've already posted much of the evidence for these claims elsewhere in the thread.

    (Original post by tysonmaniac)
    Is this not just an issue with fear? Like, feeling fear of things in general has those consequences, and it is not only women who feel fear in public as a result of actions of strangers. Moreover, despite the fact that women may be correct to feel fear, men are more correct to feel this fear (since they are more likely to be the victim of violent crime), so targeting this one issue of cat calling is redundant.
    There are different kinds of fear and of different things. For example you say that men are "more correct to feel this fear (since they are more likely to be the victim of violent crime)" Leaving aside the fact that it's offensive to treat this as some kind of competition.. Violent crime is not the same as public harassment and sexual assault. While men are more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime, 70-99% of all women will experience public harassment at some point in their life. This study found that "43% of women aged between 18 and 34 had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces in the last year." It is a very real and very justified fear. I also don't see how this is redundant. Following your logic, let's not focus on tackling specific types of crime, that's redundant because surely crime is the problem right? But then let's not focus on tackling crime, that's redundant because surely negative behaviour in general is the problem, right? But then let's not... Aaaand we end up in a never-ending process where we continue to ignore actual issues that exist in the real world just because you're uncomfortable with an issue you don't care about being addressed.

    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    We are talking about the UK, the statistics you have quoted actually say for England (more specifically London) that 43% of women aged between 16-34 had experienced some form of street harassment. That is a long way from 70%-99% of women.

    In my books sexual assault is a violent crime. The consequences of all violent crime, sexual or not are exactly the same. They are not limited to sexual assault or harassment.

    Men do feel safer but in reality they are actually in more danger than their female counterparts. So the fear that females have about walking alone is irrational, especially in broad day light.
    It also says that over 50% of women on had been personally sexually harassed or witnessed sexual harassment in the last year. Further statistics here which says "A YouGov survey of 1,047 Londoners commissioned by End Violence Against Women Coalition (Evaw) found that 43% of women aged between 18 and 34 had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces in the last year." Note that that's just in the last year, not in their whole lifetime. And the Everyday Sexism Project reveals the true extent of the problem. I don't care about what it is in your books, your books are worthless to me. What matters is that the law and statistics make an important distinction between violent crime and sexual crime which you need to take into account when you bring statistics into this.
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    Its a good way to go about it to be honest, its active rather than passive.
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    (Original post by forfrosne)

    We aren't talking about violent crime though, we're talking about public harassment and sexual assault. And if we're going to bring statistics into this, between 70-99% of all women experience street harassment at some point in their life.
    lol... i'km sorry i'm not agreeing now disagreeing with your point, but that's such a terrible statistic to use. the time frame is just way too big, obviously made to be that big due to the huge time frame just to make things look worse.
    smh ihollaback
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    tbh I agree with everything he said up until he said 'women are put on earth to satisfy men.' After that he was being dumb.
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    (Original post by Annaaaa)
    Good on her for doing it, I say.

    I think confronting them the way she did was really clever, definitely better than passively ignoring it or effing and blinding at them.

    Just shows you that there is a certain breed of males that are socially inept and sexist because no person in their right mind would consider that kind of behaviour to be a compliment.
    So true. Being told you're attractive is just so insulting. No one should have to experience this type of insult.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    So true. Being told you're attractive is just so insulting. No one should have to experience this type of insult.
    It's sexist, that's why it's insulting. It's not just a harmless casual compliment. If you can't see that you're just being willfully ignorant.
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    (Original post by Morgasm19)
    It's sexist, that's why it's insulting. It's not just a harmless casual compliment.
    It's really not sexist. Anyone can be complimented on their appearance. Just takes a certain type of personality to be offended by it.

    When I've been wolf whistled at 'cat called' whatever you call it. My immediate reaction wasn't "omg sexist pig. She must hate all men!" I'm just glad I'm not so ugly that no one will ever compliment me rofl.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    It's really not sexist. Anyone can be complimented on their appearance. Just takes a certain type of personality to be offended by it.

    When I've been wolf whistled at 'cat called' whatever you call it. My immediate reaction wasn't "omg sexist pig. She must hate all men!" I'm just glad I'm not so ugly that no one will ever compliment me rofl.
    And how often have you been wolfwhistled at? Is it something you potentially face every time you leave the house and walk down the street? I doubt it. Men haven't been subjugated and treated as sexual objects to the same extent that women have historically so there's not the same force behind a woman wolfwhistling at a man and a man doing the same thing to a woman. It's demeaning and dehumanizing. It kinda disgusts me that some men (luckily nowadays a minority) still feel entitled to make comments about women's bodies as they're trying to go about their daily business.

    Yes, anyone can be complimented on their appearance, but they aren't, are they? There are power dynamics at work when a man compliments a woman on her body in the street. Besides, how about appropriateness? Approaching a woman in a bar that you find attractive is one thing but informing them that you are sexualizing them in public in the street when nothing will come of it (unless these men expect the women they address to suddenly leap into their arms) is completely inappropriate and makes most women feel uncomfortable. I have never met a woman that felt reassured/complimented by catcalling. It's not a compliment, as soon as you hit 11 years old till the time you're about 50 you'll get catcalled. These stupid men don't discriminate.
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    A cat call is just some words. So the logical implication here is that men shouldn't be able to say some words to women if they don't like it. Makes sense.
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    (Original post by Morgasm19)
    And how often have you been wolfwhistled at? Is it something you potentially face every time you leave the house and walk down the street? I doubt it. Men haven't been subjugated and treated as sexual objects to the same extent that women have historically so there's not the same force behind a woman wolfwhistling at a man and a man doing the same thing to a woman. It's demeaning and dehumanizing. It kinda disgusts me that some men (luckily nowadays a minority) still feel entitled to make comments about women's bodies as they're trying to go about their daily business.

    Yes, anyone can be complimented on their appearance, but they aren't, are they? There are power dynamics at work when a man compliments a woman on her body in the street. Besides, how about appropriateness? Approaching a woman in a bar that you find attractive is one thing but informing them that you are sexualizing them in public in the street when nothing will come of it (unless these men expect the women they address to suddenly leap into their arms) is completely inappropriate and makes most women feel uncomfortable. I have never met a woman that felt reassured/complimented by catcalling. It's not a compliment, as soon as you hit 11 years old till the time you're about 50 you'll get catcalled. These stupid men don't discriminate.
    Potentially? Yes. Tbh it happens a lot. Mostly from schoolgirls and chavvy girls.

    Whats with all the double standards and sexism? Men are sexualized in our culture in the HERE and NOW. Just as much as women.
    Anyone can be given a compliment. Whats with all these conspiracy theories and denying that certain people get compliments?

    Why do you keep speaking for all women, implying that no other woman in the world could have a different opinion to you? Because thats not true. I have female friends who share my opinion that being given a compliment on your appearance isn't a big deal.



    Tbh that one is pretty ridiculous. Taking offense to being called hot. It's like she's so entitled and stuck up that because she doesn't get proper insults like 'oi *****' she starts taking offense to compliments instead lmfao.

    I've had chavvy girls say stuff like 'fit' 'sexaaay' when I've walked past and I really cannot see how anyone could find that offensive.

    Glad not all girls are like that though.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    Potentially? Yes. Tbh it happens a lot. Mostly from schoolgirls and chavvy girls.

    Whats with all the double standards and sexism? Men are sexualized in our culture in the HERE and NOW. Just as much as women.
    Anyone can be given a compliment. Whats with all these conspiracy theories and denying that certain people get compliments?

    Why do you keep speaking for all women, implying that no other woman in the world could have a different opinion to you? Because thats not true. I have female friends who share my opinion that being given a compliment on your appearance isn't a big deal.
    And I'm sure that being complimented by schoolgirls makes you feel just as threatened as being called out to by fully grown males. Also nice use of classist terminology.

    What are you talking about? Conspiracy theories? What?

    I'm not speaking for all women, of course there are some women who will find that kind of attention flattering, just not many in my personal experience. But something not being a big deal is not the same as something being desired.

    They are't as sexualized and I said, there's a different force behind it. Women are sexualized in a historically patriarchal, misogynistic society.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)


    Tbh that one is pretty ridiculous. Taking offense to being called hot. It's like she's so entitled and stuck up that because she doesn't get proper insults like 'oi *****' she starts taking offense to compliments instead lmfao.

    I've had chavvy girls say stuff like 'fit' 'sexaaay' when I've walked past and I really cannot see how anyone could find that offensive.

    Glad not all girls are like that though.
    I watched that one earlier and couldn't believe how petty it was. It's complaining for the sake of complaining. If the man is being crude, being offended is understandable. Saying that the women in the area are hot does not warrant getting offended over. If they're stopping and approaching you and expecting you to have a conversation, I can understand why this would be annoying. A comment in passing is not worth stopping and having a five minute conversation about how 'offended' you were.
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    (Original post by Morgasm19)
    And I'm sure that being complimented by schoolgirls makes you feel just as threatened as being called out to by fully grown males. Also nice use of classist terminology.

    What are you talking about? Conspiracy theories? What?

    I'm not speaking for all women, of course there are some women who will find that kind of attention flattering, just not many in my personal experience. But something not being a big deal is not the same as something being desired.

    They are't as sexualized and I said, there's a different force behind it. Women are sexualized in a historically patriarchal, misogynistic society.
    tbh I used to feel a bit threatened by the chavvy girls when I was younger but then I grew up and realised I was being silly. (Not trying to be "classist" lol. By chavvy I mean, loud, aggressive, vulgar)

    You feeling threatened is your problem really. You're taking something that is logically only a positive and turning it into a negative. You just have an irrational fear of men and are prescribing to the whole 'all men are rapists' propaganda. There are people who'd love to be catcalled since it's pretty much confirmation that you're attractive. You're being sexist really say that men are threatening. You can't help the way they look. You should try to not think the worst of everyone.

    There are no power dynamics. I could just as easily be stabbed by a woman as a man. There are laws that protect everyone from that type of behaviour. Pointing at someone and saying they're threatening just because of their size or gender is just discrimination and isn't the right attitude to have imo.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    tbh I used to feel a bit threatened by the chavvy girls when I was younger but then I grew up and realised I was being silly. (Not trying to be "classist" lol. By chavvy I mean, loud, aggressive, vulgar)

    You feeling threatened is your problem really. You're taking something that is logically only a positive and turning it into a negative. You just have an irrational fear of men and are prescribing to the whole 'all men are rapists' propaganda. There are people who'd love to be catcalled since it's pretty much confirmation that you're attractive. You're being sexist really say that men are threatening. You can't help the way they look. You should try to not think the worst of everyone.

    There are no power dynamics. I could just as easily be stabbed by a woman as a man. There are laws that protect everyone from that type of behaviour. Pointing at someone and saying they're threatening just because of their size or gender is just discrimination and isn't the right attitude to have imo.
    Why not just say aggressive and vulgar then?

    Lol no. You can try and diminish what I'm saying by playing the whole 'you're just scared of men' card. How original. As it happens, I don't have any kind of irrational fear of men. Does it make me feel uncomfortable if I'm going to the shops and a group of men start verbally harassing me, yes. Would I rather that they didn't feel entitled to do that? Yes. But I'm not sure how you deduced from that that I somehow have an irrational fear of the male sex? I never said men as a sex are threatening, but I, like most of the women I've talked to, wouldn't have the courage to confront someone who had catcalled me. Literally catcalling is not a compliment or a confirmation of your attractiveness...it happens to every women. Seriously. It's not like the only women who are catcalled are really attractive, I've been catcalled since I started secondary school and so have all my friends it has nothing to do with looks.

    A lot of the time I think it has very little to with attractiveness, for example I was in the city where I study last term and as I was walking past a group of builders on the way back from Tescos (so obvs looking devastatingly gorgeous), one of them made the kind of clicking/tutting noise you'd make towards an animal whilst his friend said 'You dirty old man'. Wtf is the point in that? I'm assuming he didn't expect a positive reaction from me, because he doesn't care, catcalling is like an assertion of power/dominance some of the time it has very little to with letting the person know they're attractive. If it were merely that why use such a demeaning form of expression?

    I've already tried to explain to you why catcalling is not a positive in that it reinforces the sexual objectification of women within a misogynistic society but you're not getting it so yeah.


    Well, that's your opinion, imo the right thing for you to do would be to stop taking cultural norms for granted and taking things at face value- 'being called hot is always a straightforward and uncomplicated positive thing', also maybe actually try having a little empathy. Perhaps then you would see catcalling for what it is, a sexist practice which happens disproportionately to women for a reason. Maybe then you'd change your mind about there being 'no power dynamics' at work.

    I think the fact you said that 'there are people who'd love to be catcalled' really highlights how naive you are, but it's your choice if you want to remain ignorant, go ahead. From glancing at your profile I see that threads about women/feminism seems to be something of a preoccupation for you, well, seems like with your attitude there's not much point in me trying to enlighten you so just keep going with your mentality and go fight the imaginary force of misandry or complain about how feminism is really about female supremacy or whatevs floats your boat. #NotAllMen #Misandryalert
 
 
 
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