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would we have killed Nazi German children in ww2 ? Watch

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    Those saying Dresden... true but atleast we felt guilty discretely and openly of what we did and considered it a mistake (because of the countless civilians that died) unlike a certain country in the middle east.

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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Nothing is defensible about indiscriminate bombing, the point I was making is that some vile regimes sometimes make it unavoidable. The bombing of Germany and Japan in WWII and the "collateral damage" which occurred because of it, was far worse than anything the IDF does, although the enemy which Israel is fighting (Hamas) is no less evil than Hitler or Hirohito's empire. In both cases, if you support human rights you should support the people doing the bombing - even if you think the bombing itself is not justified.
    But you did not get my points either.
    -Does the world now still operate with the same standards with regards to human rights and conduct in wars as it did seventy odd years ago?!!

    -What makes the Assaad regime's, Russian incursion into Georgia, ISIS indiscriminate bombings and shellings of civilians abhorrent and deserve international condemnation, whilst the exact actions carried out by the IDF is'' their right to defend themselves''.
    Are the lives of the civilians being killed by the IDF equal to and worth the same as the lives of the civilians in the other situations.

    - What is the point of the UN and the human rights conventions if their rules and guidelines only apply to a select group, while the other group can ignore it without any consequences

    -If civilians are fair game and everything i sfair game and the guidelines of war or un conventions account for nothing, and that no guilt, remorse or condemnation is needed for civilian targeting then the western countries are on same level as organisations such as AQ, ISIS, JAN.....etc
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    But you did not get my points either.
    -Does the world now still operate with the same standards with regards to human rights and conduct in wars as it did seventy odd years ago?!!

    -What makes the Assaad regime's, Russian incursion into Georgia, ISIS indiscriminate bombings and shellings of civilians abhorrent and deserve international condemnation, whilst the exact actions carried out by the IDF is'' their right to defend themselves''.
    Are the lives of the civilians being killed by the IDF equal to and worth the same as the lives of the civilians in the other situations.

    - What is the point of the UN and the human rights conventions if their rules and guidelines only apply to a select group, while the other group can ignore it without any consequences

    -If civilians are fair game and everything i sfair game and the guidelines of war or un conventions account for nothing, and that no guilt, remorse or condemnation is needed for civilian targeting then the western countries are on same level as organisations such as AQ, ISIS, JAN.....etc
    The principles are basically the same: kill the enemy, try not to kill civilians. Regardless, the thread was asking whether or not (I assume) Britain would have killed innocent German children in WW2, and the answer is that it did, by the thousands, due to total war.

    Assad and Putin's armies are defending despotic regimes. ISIS is trying to establish a totalitarian state. Israel is defending a democracy. That is the difference.

    There is no point in the UN while it makes no distinction between democracies and tyrannies.

    Western democracies do not target civilians, and nowhere did I say targeting civilians was okay. I merely said that in some specific circumstances - the most dire ones imaginable - it may be unavoidable.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    The principles are basically the same: kill the enemy, try not to kill civilians. Regardless, the thread was asking whether or not (I assume) Britain would have killed innocent German children in WW2, and the answer is that it did, by the thousands, due to total war.

    Assad and Putin's armies are defending despotic regimes. ISIS is trying to establish a totalitarian state. Israel is defending a democracy. That is the difference.

    There is no point in the UN while it makes no distinction between democracies and tyrannies.

    Western democracies do not target civilians, and nowhere did I say targeting civilians was okay. I merely said that in some specific circumstances - the most dire ones imaginable - it may be unavoidable.
    The entire thread seems a big merry go round excuse for civilian casualties.
    Inevitable casualties and what is happening in gaza are two separate things.

    The ideologies of the USA, Assad, Putin, Isis may be different, but if the mentality of '' we killed civilians 70 years ago in a war so why not now'' and the '' goals excuse the means'' mentality becomes prevalent, then they will share the sheer disregard for civilian life.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    The entire thread seems a big merry go round excuse for civilian casualties.
    Inevitable casualties and what is happening in gaza are two separate things.

    The ideologies of the USA, Assad, Putin, Isis may be different, but if the mentality of '' we killed civilians 70 years ago in a war so why not now'' and the '' goals excuse the means'' mentality becomes prevalent, then they will share the sheer disregard for civilian life.
    Every single civilian casualty is a tragedy, but you would surely admit that in any war, even the most just of wars, they will occur?
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    (Original post by Le Nombre)
    See: Dresden.

    Yes, WWII was a total war, in such a scenario pretty much anything is judged fair game, particularly given the relative lack of accuracy in bombing then.
    actually tanks are woefully inaccurate in general, even the israeli ones

    and secondly, if they are so precise why are so many children dead in gaza ?
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    It doesn't really have a quick answer.

    Lots of German women were raped (even really old and young) by the invading Soviet forces which is absolutely disgusting, even if they supported the NSDAP - it's not their fault as such if they were brainwashed, naive, any of these things and to do that is totally unnecessary. The same applies to killing German children in land liberated from the Nazis or revenge attacks on ethnic Germans living outside Germany, it was unnecessary and totally unjustified and I do think the USSR is not condemned by history in the way that it should be. On the other hand, when it comes to destroying factories used to create weapons and munitions or blowing up railway lines used to supply Hitler's army, civilians would die but it had to be done.
    It wasn't just Soviet forces.

    America and the UK were responsible for an awful lot of rapes.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    actually tanks are woefully inaccurate in general, even the israeli ones
    It's funny you should say this, yesterday I saw a video of a Israli Tank intercepting an incoming Anti-Tank rocket from 10 meters away..accurate as sin.

    In Afghanistan I saw tanks hit a precise target from half a mile regularly.
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    In our bombing campaign we pretty much slaughtered German men, women and children by the tens and hundreds of thousands for years. That was Total War.
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    (Original post by Three Mile Sprint)
    It's funny you should say this, yesterday I saw a video of a Israli Tank intercepting an incoming Anti-Tank rocket from 10 meters away..accurate as sin.

    In Afghanistan I saw tanks hit a precise target from half a mile regularly.
    The accurate range of a Merkava Mk IV firing APDS is well over two kilometres.
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    (Original post by Old_Simon)
    The accurate range of a Merkava Mk IV firing APDS is well over two kilometres.
    Don't doubt it, I never actually bothered leaning much about Cowboy stats when I wasin.
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    (Original post by Three Mile Sprint)
    Don't doubt it, I never actually bothered leaning much about Cowboy stats when I wasin.
    Well knowing the cowboy stats is very handy if you are facing such a beast or any other weapon system.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    actually tanks are woefully inaccurate in general, even the israeli ones

    and secondly, if they are so precise why are so many children dead in gaza ?
    Tanks are certainly not woefully inaccurate particularly Israeli ones.
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    (Original post by Old_Simon)
    Well knowing the cowboy stats is very handy if you are facing such a beast or any other weapon system.
    Thankfully the Taliban never came at us with a Tank.

    Had such an event occurred I would however have regretted my lack of knowledge on modern day Armored Vehicle capabilities.

    Now mortars, we could tell where they were going to land within two meters from the whistle alone.
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    (Original post by StopJewishWars)
    Dresden holocaust where hundreds of thousands of civilians were murdered. You justify it but they did nothing wrong. They were largely women and children. Disgusting how the Allies can be so self righteous yet commit crimes like that and the atomic bombings of Japan!
    The Allies simply made a reaction to german action. The Germans starded the total war:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Wielu%C5%84
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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    The Allies simply made a reaction to german action. The Germans starded the total war:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Wielu%C5%84
    Ah yes, the primary school playground approach to war crimes, "they did it first :mad:".
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    (Original post by betaglucowhat)
    Ah yes, the primary school playground approach to war crimes, "they did it first :mad:".
    99% of population is less than a primary school mentality and knowledge. Just making them remember.

    Whole discussion is not far better. Someone had mentioned the "disgusting rapes" made by soviets. It is as much stupid as claiming that "this is what happened to innocent Germans as a result of their fascist leadership".
    People's mentality is made by the environment they grow up and live in. That is why the germans supported the nazis (fascist and nazi are two different thigs) and that is why the soviet soldiers raped the german women.

    People are disgusted about soviet rapes, but they don't care that these rapes were committed by ineducated people who were first Tsar's slaves for centuries, and then after a while, Stalin forced them to join the Red Army, he told them that the Germans are as bad as the devil, they were forced to fight for life and death, they saw the Soviet Union completely destroyed be the war, and finally, when they entered the Germany- the evil's lair in their eyes, after they lost losts of comrades, then they did horrible things. What would you expect them to do?

    But when you see eg. the more or less educated medium class Germans, killed by Allies bombers answering to German bombings, you say "oh no, we have killed innocent germans" and then you ignore the fact that these people probably supported Hitler, or at least did nothing to stop him. Decide what is your approach for heaven's sake, and be
    consistent! If say that the germans are innocent, then don't blame the Red Army troops, they were poor people who never had a chance to improve their morality intelectual standards.
 
 
 
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