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Britain is becoming less liberal and moving closer to dictatorship Watch

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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    High standard of debate here.
    Blame Miliband - he isn't exactly the inspirational bastion of leftist politics that you'd want is he?

    I wouldn't trust him to get my shopping, nevermind lead a political party...
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    Also, this constant demand for "evidence" every time someone expresses an opinion on here is ridiculous. This is not a journal, this is an informal debating forum and if you disagree with my opinion then state why mine is wrong and present your own opinion. All newspaper opinion articles in papers ranging from the Guardian to the Sun to the Times to the Telegraph contain unsubstantiated opinion, stop demanding evidence for people's opinions, it's totally impractical and serves no purpose other than to shut down debate. If you want opinions backed by evidence then go read a social science journal. This isn't one.
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    (Original post by P357)
    I didn't think there was much of a difference between the two myself.My question was whether you take issue with my stance on drugs and prostitution because you may feel it threatens "freedom" (thereby the libertarian views you seem to hold).
    of course it threatens freedom - how wouldn't it? freedom is about being allowed to take risks, it's not all sunshine and buttercups, just like the world of capitalism; you're allowed to invest in things not everybody else in the country would do, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to do it just because people disagree, just like drugs, prostitution, etc
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    Also, this constant demand for "evidence" every time someone expresses an opinion on here is ridiculous. This is not a journal, this is an informal debating forum and if you disagree with my opinion then state why mine is wrong and present your own opinion. All newspaper opinion articles in papers ranging from the Guardian to the Sun to the Times to the Telegraph contain unsubstantiated opinion, stop demanding evidence for people's opinions, it's totally impractical and serves no purpose other than to shut down debate. If you want opinions backed by evidence then go read a social science journal. This isn't one.
    Sometimes evidence is required however. If you quote a figure then you should be expected to back it up with evidence.
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    (Original post by zippity.doodah)
    of course it threatens freedom - how wouldn't it? freedom is about being allowed to take risks, it's not all sunshine and buttercups, just like the world of capitalism; you're allowed to invest in things not everybody else in the country would do, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to do it just because people disagree, just like drugs, prostitution, etc
    there's no such thing as absolute freedom.Never has been,never will be.If a majority agrees to ban something because it shapes a society they do not want to belong to then that IS freedom. And if the minority wants to have virtually no restrictions then they are totally free to leave. A drug-user is free to do what he does;I'm free to judge and condemn;We can see who gains the largest backing-up as a result. hash-tag democracy yea?
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    (Original post by P357)
    there's no such thing as absolute freedom.Never has been,never will be.If a majority agrees to ban something because it shapes a society they do not want to belong to then that IS freedom. And if the minority wants to have virtually no restrictions then they are totally free to leave. A drug-user is free to do what he does;I'm free to judge and condemn;We can see who gains the largest backing-up as a result. hash-tag democracy yea?
    freedom and democracy are totally different things.
    we have both in our society, relatively, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.
    the exercise of democracy can bring both freedom *and* authoritarianism
    and with the exercise bringing authoritarianism, you don't get freedom just because it was a practice of democracy, because that doesn't make sense; if the majority vote to lessen the freedom of others, that does not make them themselves more free as citizens, it only weakens the liberty of others
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    (Original post by MattBerry96)
    Sometimes evidence is required however. If you quote a figure then you should be expected to back it up with evidence.
    Agree with this.
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    (Original post by P357)
    there's no such thing as absolute freedom.Never has been,never will be.If a majority agrees to ban something because it shapes a society they do not want to belong to then that IS freedom.
    No, no, no. Individual liberty and democracy are not the same thing.
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    Typical lefty wannabe power mongers - distorting the argument.

    Issue has never been about absolute freedom - we already have completely functioning principals.

    The issue is who decides them ?

    Us through elected , accountable officials or unaccountable self appointed judges of morality ?

    Indeed what gives them the right ? and who gave them the right ?

    Negative for both !
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    (Original post by zippity.doodah)
    freedom and democracy are totally different things.
    we have both in our society, relatively, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.
    the exercise of democracy can bring both freedom *and* authoritarianism
    and with the exercise bringing authoritarianism, you don't get freedom just because it was a practice of democracy, because that doesn't make sense; if the majority vote to lessen the freedom of others, that does not make them themselves more free as citizens, it only weakens the liberty of others
    I didn't imply that democracy = liberalism necessarily. But for democracy to be carried out there needs to be a degree of individual freedom whereby each expresses their views on how they want their society to be shaped.For anything remotely practical to be implemented you need to consider the majority. You DO get freedom just because it was a practice of democracy. Deciding what you want your society to look like IS freedom-you have that choice.Much like the prostitution argument whereby they are "free" not because they can be bought but because they have chosen to do that to themselves. As for the bold bit: again,you're misunderstanding. Individuals have the right to express HOW they want the society they live in to be like. Catering to minority views (whatever they may be)and ignoring majority views IS oppression but on a much larger scale. And this right here is why liberalism can't ever be truthfully right-wing:because it's idealistic and assumes everyone agrees with each other,and when the reverse happens it tends to favor the minority as long as long as there's a lack of restrictions. The fact of the matter is,nothing's set in stone-freedom is deciding what you want to be part of.

    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    No, no, no. Individual liberty and democracy are not the same thing.
    didn't say it was.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    The purpose of the article was to list the most ridiculous bans, not document all of them.

    Here's a more sinister ban, banning an organisation because it has links to neo-cons:

    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite...3#.U9KXU2PG-Do
    You said that the article ''outlines how UK university student unions are essentially becoming dictatorships, oppressing the basic freedoms of their students''. It does not. Just 5 cases do not even begin to outline oppression, especially if they only apply to a 4 universities and cover trivial aspects of life.

    With regard to the more sinister ban, Student Rights still exists: http://www.studentrights.org.uk/. The 7 unions can condemn it all they want but they cannot stop people from joining it. To my knowledge student unions don't have that kind of power.

    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    You want evidence that people have been arrested under the hate speech legislation? How about you use Google?

    Your entire argument consists of saying that things aren't that bad and that things are worse elsewhere. I'm sorry, that's not an argument. Whataboutery isn't valid. Of course things are worse elsewhere, that doesn't change the fact that we are becoming more authoritarian.
    Have you heard about something called ''the burden of proof''? It isn't my job to provide evidence for a claim that you make.

    And yes, my arguement does consist of that. By mentioning China I was trying to demonstrate that the examples of the 'rising authoritarian oppression' you give are trivial and meaningless. In other words: you shouldn't worry or care.

    If the government is indeed doing serious things that inhibit serious freedoms then please provide evidence for this.

    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    Also, this constant demand for "evidence" every time someone expresses an opinion on here is ridiculous. This is not a journal, this is an informal debating forum and if you disagree with my opinion then state why mine is wrong and present your own opinion. All newspaper opinion articles in papers ranging from the Guardian to the Sun to the Times to the Telegraph contain unsubstantiated opinion, stop demanding evidence for people's opinions, it's totally impractical and serves no purpose other than to shut down debate. If you want opinions backed by evidence then go read a social science journal. This isn't one.
    Debates concern conflicting arguements. If an arguement relies on a claim that can be verified as true/false then it is important for someone to provide that verification. If not, then you're simply stating an opinion.

    If you wanted to share an opinion with others then perhaps you should not have made a bunch of claims that could be verified? You should have said something like ''I think it is'' rather than ''It is''. ''It is'' is a statement that depends on facts. It is not an opinion.
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    balbalblabal lefty bogey man blablablablabla
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    Good
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    I thought liberalism or neo-liberalism is a form of dictatorship in itself. In fact, we are moving towards ever greater neo-liberalism.
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    You said that the article ''outlines how UK university student unions are essentially becoming dictatorships, oppressing the basic freedoms of their students''. It does not. Just 5 cases do not even begin to outline oppression, especially if they only apply to a 4 universities and cover trivial aspects of life.

    With regard to the more sinister ban, Student Rights still exists: http://www.studentrights.org.uk/. The 7 unions can condemn it all they want but they cannot stop people from joining it. To my knowledge student unions don't have that kind of power.

    Have you heard about something called ''the burden of proof''? It isn't my job to provide evidence for a claim that you make.

    And yes, my arguement does consist of that. By mentioning China I was trying to demonstrate that the examples of the 'rising authoritarian oppression' you give are trivial and meaningless. In other words: you shouldn't worry or care.

    If the government is indeed doing serious things that inhibit serious freedoms then please provide evidence for this.

    Debates concern conflicting arguements. If an arguement relies on a claim that can be verified as true/false then it is important for someone to provide that verification. If not, then you're simply stating an opinion.

    If you wanted to share an opinion with others then perhaps you should not have made a bunch of claims that could be verified? You should have said something like ''I think it is'' rather than ''It is''. ''It is'' is a statement that depends on facts. It is not an opinion.
    The fact that student unions are banning sombreros etc shows that their priorities are messed up and that they revel in banning things they don't like to suit their agenda. This is worrying and dangerous. It's simply not okay to dismiss these things as "trivial", you and I can both agree they are ridiculous and the fact that SUs are introducing them demonstrates they are insane.

    Britain is becoming more authoritarian. It is clear that the state has an agenda aimed at promoting certain groups and this agenda pervades throughout media outlets everywhere. It is also clear that the Equality Act restricts freedom of speech. This is not acceptable and again you cannot dismiss it as trivial.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    I thought liberalism or neo-liberalism is a form of dictatorship in itself. In fact, we are moving towards ever greater neo-liberalism.
    I'm not a neo-liberal and don't recognise it as a valid form of liberalism.

    Only classical liberalism is valid as an ideology for how we should run our society. Freedom needs to be paramount and lefties just don't understand this.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    balbalblabal lefty bogey man blablablablabla
    The left oppose freedom and aim to bring about societal collapse.

    Only classical liberals care about true equality and freedom for all, regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. Everyone else wishes to impose a form of authoritarianism based around their own prejudices.
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    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...tweets-3498342
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    The left oppose freedom and aim to bring about societal collapse.
    No they don't. Your just one of those idiots that can't grasp that people form different views on stuff. There are those on the left that think everyone on the right is morally bankrupt and then there are those like you on the right who think every single lefty is a bolshevik attempting to form a vanguard dictatorship.

    I'm left wing as I think leftist thinking leads to more freedom for more people. Those without much economic power should not be exploitable and should be protected from wage slavery for example. Wage slavery has always existed in industry societies where there is little worker rights. Wage slavery is not freedom. I also believe the level of democracy should be increased as much as possible, quite the opposite of what you are saying I want.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    No they don't. Your just one of those idiots that can't grasp that people form different views on stuff. There are those on the left that think everyone on the right is morally bankrupt and then there are those like you who think every single lefty is a bolshevik attempting to form a vanguard dictatorship.

    I'm left wing as I think leftist thinking leads to more freedom for more people. Those without much economic power should not be exploitable and shold be protected from wage slavery for example. Wage slavery has always existed in industry societies where there is little worker rights. Wage slavery is not freedom.
    I'm not talking about economics here. I'm talking about freedom of speech.

    If you want to designate certain words and statements as offensive and then criminalise them on these grounds, you support a move towards authoritarianism and dictatorship.

    What concerns me is that socialist countries in Scandinavia don't just have a left wing economic system. They oppress freedom of speech to a greater extent than any other countries in the West and use state resources to promote their agenda.
 
 
 
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