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    oh my god
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    (Original post by Toaster Leavings)
    I really can't wait until 100% of the human population can drop the bullcrap fairy stories. **** them. Eventually it will all come out in the wash. We've grown more intelligent with each generation ( http://blog.ted.com/2013/09/26/furth...-flynn-effect/ ) and now with globalisation and the Internet perhaps it will accelerate. With enough people capable of critical thinking to counter the idiots perhaps eventually religion will die.
    It still baffles me how two religions that rely on a glorified fairy tale encompass about 1/2 of the world's population.

    top lel.
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    (Original post by rizzl8)
    i seriously don't know why people emphasise this matter so much and give it so much attention. If people want their kids to wear this, they are free to do so. Although i don't agree with it we shouldn't be telling people what and what not to wear.
    I don't necessarily think we should dictate dress or beliefs either, but I think it's a little naïve to suggest it's not an important topic of discussion, or that this is simply about clothing.

    The hijab represents an idea, and one that many people see as being closely linked to indoctrination, intolerance and other dangerous qualities. In most families it's entirely harmless - a matter of personal choice. However, it represents something that we should be wary of. Not all values can coexist, and there is a strong case for saying even large chains like John Lewis have a certain level of social responsibility.

    As above, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think this is an issue to at least watch closely.
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    (Original post by rizzl8)
    i seriously don't know why people emphasise this matter so much and give it so much attention. If people want their kids to wear this, they are free to do so. Although i don't agree with it we shouldn't be telling people what and what not to wear.
    How, then, is it acceptable for Muslim parents to tell their daughters to wear the hijab?
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    John Lewis's new line, hijabs to wear at school: Department store signs contract with schools in London and Liverpool to offer conservative Islamic clothing

    John Lewis is offering the hijab in its school uniform department for the first time.
    The headdress is to be sold in the company’s stores in London and Liverpool after it signed contracts with two schools – one which was set up to educate Muslim girls and a second that welcomes pupils from all religious communities.
    The hijab covers the head and chest and is worn by Muslim women after the onset of puberty as a sign of modesty in the presence of men who are outside their immediate family.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-clothing.html


    A smart two-piece plain hijab that is perfect for school.
    Cool. I have been looking for Ringwraith halloween costume for a while now.
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    People in this thread saying children shouldn't be forced to wear this are stupid. Parents have the right to make decisions they think are in the best interest for their children, and as their children are under their protection and are their responsibility they can make them where whatever (within reason). Secondly, personal choice doesn't apply to children because they're children, they don't have the mental maturity to make decisions on their own. The hijab represents an important idea- a value, and just because some people don't agree with the value or the idea the hijab represents it doesn't mean that other parents aren't allowed to implement this value in their household. As for John Lewis selling the hijab, I'm glad they've realised that supply and demand is far more important than the questionable rhetoric perpetuated by those who dislike the hijab.
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    (Original post by HeavyTeddy)
    People in this thread saying children shouldn't be forced to wear this are stupid. Parents have the right to make decisions they think are in the best interest for their children, and as their children are under their protection and are their responsibility they can make them where whatever (within reason). Secondly, personal choice doesn't apply to children because they're children, they don't have the mental maturity to make decisions on their own. The hijab represents an important idea- a value, and just because some people don't agree with the value or the idea the hijab represents it doesn't mean that other parents aren't allowed to implement this value in their household. As for John Lewis selling the hijab, I'm glad they've realised that supply and demand is far more important than the questionable rhetoric perpetuated by those who dislike the hijab.
    I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Whether you like it or not, there is obviously a demand for Hijabs for school so John Lewis being a business have done the smart thing and decided to capitalise on it. They're not going to miss out on thousands of pounds just because a handful right-wingers oppose to it.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Oh no, not like you ever see Sikhs in turbans or Jews wearing tallits and kippahs.

    Haha. Agree! +rep
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    (Original post by lamp-y)
    How, then, is it acceptable for Muslim parents to tell their daughters to wear the hijab?
    Probably because, up until the time when their children are independent, it is a parent's duty to decide what is in the best interests of their children? How is it acceptable that, when I was a young child, my mother never let me go to school in my pyjamas?
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    (Original post by joker12345)
    They often still like/dislike some of their clothes but that's besides the point, children usually don't care, they wear whatever their parents give them and as long as they fit in they won't care. A young Muslim girl won't get that choice, she'll be told to wear something the other girls aren't wearing, and a headscarf is simply part of modesty - she'll be given all the other rules about dress, you can't show any skin, you can't wear summer dresses etc.
    What about female young girls who are ridiculously made to wear high heels, crop tops, and a face full of make up. They might not feel comfortable in it, but their mums or dads might think it makes them look good, so they won't get that choice to wear normal clothes at their age. I think when a child is young they're the responsibility of the parent, and when they get older they can decide for themselves.
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    (Original post by Octohedral)
    I don't necessarily think we should dictate dress or beliefs either, but I think it's a little naïve to suggest it's not an important topic of discussion, or that this is simply about clothing.

    The hijab represents an idea, and one that many people see as being closely linked to indoctrination, intolerance and other dangerous qualities. In most families it's entirely harmless - a matter of personal choice. However, it represents something that we should be wary of. Not all values can coexist, and there is a strong case for saying even large chains like John Lewis have a certain level of social responsibility.

    As above, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think this is an issue to at least watch closely.
    Why would John Lewis care what "many people" see it as being closely linked to, when their primary objective is to make money, and when, if they chose not to sell hijabs for school, someone else would (since ultimately, people who want to wear a hijab are going to wear a hijab)?
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    Its curious because it's not a religious requirement. Also no other religion does anything remotely similar.
    I think it's for theists to decide what exactly their beliefs are regarding their God's commandments. Whether or not it's a religious requirement depends on whether they think it is. Plenty of, if not most hijab wearers believe that their God, or their Prophet commands them to cover their heads.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Probably because, up until the time when their children are independent, it is a parent's duty to decide what is in the best interests of their children? How is it acceptable that, when I was a young child, my mother never let me go to school in my pyjamas?
    I agree with you; I just thought it was vague of rizzl8 to say that "we shouldn't tell people what to wear". Of course parents have a responsibility to dress their children.

    I would say, however, that your mother not letting you go to school in your pyjamas is not an example of oppressive cultural indoctrination with roots in a patriarchal, misogynistic society based on religion – it's just common sense. I'm not sure the attitude of Muslim parents towards their daughters wearing the hijab is cultural indoctrination, but I will tell you that Muslim girls have a damn sight less choice about clothing than you did when you were dependent on your family, and that that's not a good thing. Apologies if I assume incorrectly you don't wear the hijab and/or aren't dependent on your family.
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    No we should only encourage kids to dress like Miley Cyrus.

    No parents are idiots, everyone should live according to standards set by politicians with 30% of the vote
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    Wow some of these comments. Why do you all think everyone is forced into wearing a hijab? No way would someone willingly wear it huh? :rolleyes:

    Speaking of children; If parents want their child to wear a Hijab or a turban, they are free to do so as that's their child. They will practice their religion how they please. Who are you to tell them they can't?
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    (Original post by lamp-y)
    I would say, however, that your mother not letting you go to school in your pyjamas is not an example of oppressive cultural indoctrination with roots in a patriarchal, misogynistic society based on religion – it's just common sense.
    Perhaps, but that's exactly what many Muslim parents would say about the hijab too. They have no intention of oppressing anybody (lack of the right to choose your own clothing as a child is hardly oppression; see below). For them, it's just common sense, that when God commands you to wear something, you wear it.

    As for the roots of this practice; in principle, it's no different to a western parent telling their daughter that they can't go to school dressed in a skirt that is too short, or a top that is too low cut. One of the purposes of clothing is to cover yourself, and different parents will have different ideas on how much cover is appropriate for a school environment.

    I'm not sure the attitude of Muslim parents towards their daughters wearing the hijab is cultural indoctrination, but I will tell you that Muslim girls have a damn sight less choice about clothing than you did when you were dependent on your family, and that that's not a good thing. Apologies if I assume incorrectly you don't wear the hijab and/or aren't dependent on your family.
    When I went to school, I had no choice whatsoever regarding what clothing I wore. There was a strict school uniform, and that was that. But having my clothing entirely dictated by other people was hardly the end of the world. Muslim girls have no less choice about what to wear to school than I ever did. In fact many have more choice about it.
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    I really don't understand why people are kicking up such a fuss. John Lewis are selling a religious item of clothing in stores where there is a large muslim community and there will be a high demand. You wouldn't go to an independent store selling them in a predominantly muslim part of London and berate them for selling the hijab, and its not like a school is trying to force them on every child, regardless of their religion.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Perhaps, but that's exactly what many Muslim parents would say about the hijab too. They have no intention of oppressing anybody (lack of the right to choose your own clothing as a child is hardly oppression; see below). For them, it's just common sense, that when God commands you to do something, you do it.
    I don't think any parent ever has the intention of oppressing their child, but that certainly doesn't mean they don't – the hijab isn't the result of the choices of individual parents, but of a culture that is justifiably called misogynistic today. And if common sense is anything that you think God commands you to do, what's stopping me from wearing a colander on my head to school if I hear voices in my head while I'm sleeping?
    As for the roots of this practice; in principle, it's no different to a western parent telling their daughter that they can't go to school dressed in a skirt that is too short, or a top that is too low cut. One of the purposes of clothing is to cover yourself, and different parents will have different ideas on how much cover is appropriate for a school environment.
    If you ignore religion it's exactly the same. But I'm concerned about Muslim girls in the UK who are isolated from their non-Muslim peers at school: it's not good for society since it leads to ghettoisation.
    When I went to school, I had no choice whatsoever regarding what clothing I wore. There was a strict school uniform, and that was that. But having my clothing entirely dictated by other people was hardly the end of the world. Muslim girls have no less choice about what to wear to school than I ever did. In fact many have more choice about it.
    Forget school, I'm talking about the rest of your life. It's inaccurate to say that Muslim girls have more choice about clothing than you did, and in fact I would call it an insult to them.
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    (Original post by lamp-y)
    I don't think any parent ever has the intention of oppressing their child, but that certainly doesn't mean they don't – the hijab isn't the result of the choices of individual parents, but of a culture that is justifiably called misogynistic today.
    It is the choice of individual parents as to whether or not they decide that the culture you speak of has the right idea about how people should dress.

    And if common sense is anything that you think God commands you to do, what's stopping me from wearing a colander on my head to school if I hear voices in my head while I'm sleeping?
    Nothing; it's up to you to weigh up the pros and cons of doing that for yourself (or for your child when you send them to school), and make a decision. Although I expect the "cons" will include the fact that the school won't permit it and you'll be asked to leave, as well as a bit of hassle when getting called in for a psychiatric assessment. For people who want to wear a hijab, it tends to be easier than that.

    Forget school, I'm talking about the rest of your life. It's inaccurate to say that Muslim girls have more choice about clothing than you did; and in fact I would call it an insult to them.
    I thought this discussion was regarding hijabs being sold for use at school.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    It is the choice of individual parents as to whether or not they decide that the culture you speak of has the right idea about how people should dress.
    That's very naive: do you not believe that the society into which the parents are born has an enormous effect on how they think they should bring up their children? This cycle is obviously the same for every society, but I think forcing girls to wear the hijab/niqab is a bad consequence of one particular religion.
    Nothing; it's up to you to weigh up the pros and cons of doing that for yourself (or for your child when you send them to school), and make a decision. Although I expect the "cons" will include the fact that the school won't permit it and you'll be asked to leave, as well as a bit of hassle when getting called in for a psychiatric assessment. For people who want to wear a hijab, it tends to be easier than that.
    I'm not talking about the pros and cons, I'm talking about principles. It is unfair – double standards – that certain pupils are allowed to cover their hair and neck with clothing when other can't, and that's a bad thing for society.
    I thought this discussion was regarding hijabs being sold for use at school.
    True but I wanted to broaden it out, that's how I roll
 
 
 
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