Council spend £100,000 on statue promoting broken families Watch

NYU℠
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#21
Report 4 years ago
#21
(Original post by #Ridwan)
The government have absolutely no moral right to forcibly pillage our earnings
There's this thing called taxes that you pay. And there's literally a mountain of literature on how taxes are justified, both from a moral perspective, but also from a normative perspective - you use roads, trains, schools, universities, electricity, water, etc.? I assume. Well, you've then benefited from that 'pillaging'.

and then squander them on a technically inept sculpture
Are you an art student? Can you demonstrate to us the technical ineptitude?

promoting hedonism
Can you show how it, objectively, and not merely in your opinion does that? Is this what the artist actually intended? Do you speak to the artist about it? Did they tell you 'Yeah, I'm totally making this to promote hedonism!"

and societal decline.
See above. This seems like mere opinion which you cannot prove the artist intended. Furthermore, the majority of the West would disagree that there's societal decline. In fact, much the opposite would hold true according to most people.

Birmingham has many societal problems and rather than seeking to solve them, the city council instead wants to celebrate and exacerbate them.
I fail to see how this is celebrating or exacerbating societal 'problems'. I think crime, drug use, poverty, hunger, etc. are societal problems to be addressed. I don't think that a statue of single parents is itself a social problem; I don't think that single parents in themselves are a social problem. The children of single parents can and do turn out just as well socially adjusted and educationally developed as their counterparts.

Now, I'm familiar with the research on single-parent families, as I assume you are. On average, the children of single-parent families do face more problems and hurdles than those in multi-parent families. But, you seems to be fallaciously attributing the source of the problem to the fact of having a single parent. But, as research clearly shows, the problems stem from issues of lower income, the singe parent having to spend more time out of the house working to earn an income, etc.

The single parent isn't the cause of the problem, sorry. Research disagrees with your assertion. There are multiple causes, but the single parent themselves are not the problem (if they were, all children of single-parents families would turn out less well than their counter-parts and this isn't the case).

Most of our current societal problems stem from the breakdown of the traditional family unit
Do they? Can you demonstrate this? Can you provide us with research beyond your mere thus far unsubstantiated assertions? Again, this research would need to demonstrate that the actual problem is single parent families, not the causal factors that I outlined above. You would need to present research that stated that simply having only one parent, regardless of socioeconomic status, family stability, presentness in the child's life, etc. was the problem. I can guarantee you'll find no such research - you've false attributed the causal problem to the fact of having only one parent when, in fact, the causal factor is many things that are not intrinsic of having only one parent.

and the promotion of hedonism as an acceptable lifestyle choice.
Again, you've yet to demonstrate that the artist intended this and that you're not merely reading it into the statue; furthermore, you've yet to show how single-parent families are intrinsically examples of hedonism.

(1) Oh, I'm a widow and a single-parent family! Look at me partake in hedonism!
(2) Oh, my husband was abusive towards me and my child, so I left him. Look at me partake in hedonism!
(3) Oh, my husband and I didn't have a good or stable relationship, we frequently argued, it created a lot of instability in the family, so I left him to improve my child's family life. Look at me partake in hedonism!
(4) Oh, my husband was an alcoholic... Look at me partake in hedonism!
(5) ... Was a drug addict... Hedonism!
(6) ... Gambling addict... Hedonism!
(7) ... Sleeping with prostitutes... Hedonism!

Do we need to keep going? These, and many others, are contrary to your assertion that this must be hedonism or that single parent families must be hedonism.

Even if we take a single-parent family who never married and had a child from a one-night stand, you haven't demonstrated that it is intrinsically hedonistic. You've merely repeatedly asserted it without any support.

All marriage breakdowns and births from unmarried mothers can be attributed to the pursuit of hedonism among one or both parents.
Nice try. But no. See the examples above. You've merely demonstrated a very large ignorance of social factors and psychology.

That damn widow being a single parent! How terrible of her!

How is a marriage breakdown due to constant arguing, instability, disagreements, etc. due to hedonism?

single parent families are never a good idea if you want to ensure your child's happiness.
Why don't you start with some research? As stated above, it's not intrinsic of single-parent families that the child will turn out less well-off; it's actually caused by things such as socioeconomic problems. You can remedy the socioeconomic problems, thereby solving the issue. But, rather than do that, you seem to hell bent on criticizing, knocking-down, and insulting single parents.

Rather than treat the actual causal problems, you want to create a social stigma against single parents. The modern world doesn't need to regress into such a barbaric state. Laws and policies should be generated using research, not opinion. And research states that single parents are the intrinsic evil you're painting them out to be. Socioeconomic problems, educational problems, etc. are the actual problems. So rather than treating a symptom, why don't we treat the cause?

This is not to suggest all single mothers are inadequate and bad parents, but they are symptomatic of our societal decline and should not be publicly celebrated by bleeding the wealth of our citizens.
Yes! You've identified them as a symptom, not the cause. So, why not create policies that remedy that actual causes rather than knocking down single parent families and trying to create an unnecessary social stigma against them?
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stargirl63
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#22
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#22
This statue is wrong on so many levels.

No one WANTS a broken home - so the posts above saying that children aren't missing out, they still live happy lives etc etc is fine, but it's not ideal, at all. They simply don't know what they are missing - and tbh, if you do know what you're missing, and you know that your dad is a good for nothing waste of space - then clearly the mother could have done better.

Both my parents are married, and there's never one point in my life where I can say "I didn't need my dad" because I did - all the damn time. He's amazing and I love him so much for the life he has given for me. It's all well and good saying you "didn't need your dad" but quite frankly - you didn't make that decision, that decision was made for you.

I have a lot of respect for mothers who have ended up raising a child on their own, due to circumstance etc however I highly doubt there's a lot of girls out there who say "when I grow up, I want to be a single mother" - no one actually wants this, it is just something that happens, and you make the best out of a not ideal situation.

Apologies if this post was offensive - I am not trying to be personal to anyone, because like I said, I have a lot of respect for single mothers.
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#Ridwan
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#23
Report Thread starter 4 years ago
#23
(Original post by NYU2012)
There's this thing called taxes that you pay. And there's literally a mountain of literature on how taxes are justified, both from a moral perspective, but also from a normative perspective - you use roads, trains, schools, universities, electricity, water, etc.? I assume. Well, you've then benefited from that 'pillaging'.
How convenient that you have cherry-picked part of one sentence to make it sound as if I flat-out oppose all taxation. I never said that and I'm not going to allow you to misrepresent my words, thank you very much.

Can you show how it, objectively, and not merely in your opinion does that? Is this what the artist actually intended? Do you speak to the artist about it? Did they tell you 'Yeah, I'm totally making this to promote hedonism!"
Given that all single-parent families (aside from one where there has been a death) exist as a result of hedonism, a statue that promotes single-parent families is de facto promoting hedonism as an acceptable lifestyle choice.

I fail to see how this is celebrating or exacerbating societal 'problems'. I think crime, drug use, poverty, hunger, etc. are societal problems to be addressed. I don't think that a statue of single parents is itself a social problem; I don't think that single parents in themselves are a social problem. The children of single parents can and do turn out just as well socially adjusted and educationally developed as their counterparts.
Plenty of people from messed-up families turn out okay, doesn't mean that messed-up families should be condoned or encouraged.

Now, I'm familiar with the research on single-parent families, as I assume you are. On average, the children of single-parent families do face more problems and hurdles than those in multi-parent families. But, you seems to be fallaciously attributing the source of the problem to the fact of having a single parent. But, as research clearly shows, the problems stem from issues of lower income, the singe parent having to spend more time out of the house working to earn an income, etc.

The single parent isn't the cause of the problem, sorry. Research disagrees with your assertion. There are multiple causes, but the single parent themselves are not the problem (if they were, all children of single-parents families would turn out less well than their counter-parts and this isn't the case).
So you admit that single parentage usually causes lower household income, while also stating that single parentage isn't the cause of this problem. Logical fallacy.

Your "research" doesn't actually disprove anything I've said, all you've done is say that not every child brought up by a single parent is messed up. I never claimed that, so you're arguing against a strawman.

Do they? Can you demonstrate this? Can you provide us with research beyond your mere thus far unsubstantiated assertions? Again, this research would need to demonstrate that the actual problem is single parent families, not the causal factors that I outlined above. You would need to present research that stated that simply having only one parent, regardless of socioeconomic status, family stability, presentness in the child's life, etc. was the problem. I can guarantee you'll find no such research - you've false attributed the causal problem to the fact of having only one parent when, in fact, the causal factor is many things that are not intrinsic of having only one parent.
The interconnectedness of all this is obvious and staring you in the face, but you're still denying it. You admit that single parentage frequently leads to problems, which you have listed, and then you go onto deny that single parentage is a problem. Another logical fallacy.

Again, you've yet to demonstrate that the artist intended this and that you're not merely reading it into the statue; furthermore, you've yet to show how single-parent families are intrinsically examples of hedonism.

(1) Oh, I'm a widow and a single-parent family! Look at me partake in hedonism!
(2) Oh, my husband was abusive towards me and my child, so I left him. Look at me partake in hedonism!
(3) Oh, my husband and I didn't have a good or stable relationship, we frequently argued, it created a lot of instability in the family, so I left him to improve my child's family life. Look at me partake in hedonism!
(4) Oh, my husband was an alcoholic... Look at me partake in hedonism!
(5) ... Was a drug addict... Hedonism!
(6) ... Gambling addict... Hedonism!
(7) ... Sleeping with prostitutes... Hedonism!

Do we need to keep going? These, and many others, are contrary to your assertion that this must be hedonism or that single parent families must be hedonism.
1) Not hedonism. Admittedly I should have mentioned the death of a parent in my OP.

2) Hedonism on the part of the abuser. I did say that single parent families were caused by hedonism on the part of one or both parents, very strange that you've assumed I view abuse victims as hedonists and not the abusers themselves.

3) Hedonism on the part of one or both parents, depending on the circumstances. My wife and I have the odd argument but only a hedonist would push arguments to the point where their partner feels unsafe enough to leave. It is also true that only a hedonist would leave the mother/father of their child after the odd unthreatening argument.

4) All irrefutably hedonism. Staggering that you can deny these are not. If neglecting your partner and children to gamble, drink, take drugs or sleep with hookers isn't hedonism then I don't know what the **** is.

Even if we take a single-parent family who never married and had a child from a one-night stand, you haven't demonstrated that it is intrinsically hedonistic. You've merely repeatedly asserted it without any support.
Conceiving a child without intending on bringing it up in a stable two-parent household is hedonism. You are putting your desire to have a child ahead of that child's need for stability and dual parental influence.

How is a marriage breakdown due to constant arguing, instability, disagreements, etc. due to hedonism?
See my explanation above.

Why don't you start with some research? As stated above, it's not intrinsic of single-parent families that the child will turn out less well-off; it's actually caused by things such as socioeconomic problems. You can remedy the socioeconomic problems, thereby solving the issue. But, rather than do that, you seem to hell bent on criticizing, knocking-down, and insulting single parents.
You admitted above that stated socioeconomic problems only came into play when single parentage occured. Therefore proving my point. Of course, there are plenty of two-parent families that experience socioeconomic problems that disadvantage their children, but most socioeconomic problems exist due to hedonism among businesses and governments. Either way, the root cause of single-parent families and wider socioeconomic problems is hedonism.

Single-parent families are both a symptom and a cause of the general trend of hedonism pervading our society. The wider enemy is hedonism, tackling single parentage as an acceptable lifestyle choice is not the only thing we must do to tackle this, but it's not a bad place to start.

Rather than treat the actual causal problems, you want to create a social stigma against single parents. The modern world doesn't need to regress into such a barbaric state. Laws and policies should be generated using research, not opinion. And research states that single parents are the intrinsic evil you're painting them out to be. Socioeconomic problems, educational problems, etc. are the actual problems. So rather than treating a symptom, why don't we treat the cause?
I completely agree that we should treat the cause. The overall cause of all the problems you describe is hedonism. Therefore, we must tackle it.
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Catholic_
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#24
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#24
We need a statue of Churchill.


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