M290 - NHS Anti-discrimination Motion Watch

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Green_Pink
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#21
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#21
(Original post by nebelbon)
It isn't though.

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Sorry, which part of my statement are you referring to?
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username456717
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Aph)
Worried this may not pass due to the split in the left.
We can hope.

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username456717
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Green_Pink)
Sorry, which part of my statement are you referring to?
Individual freedoms and all that rubbish.

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Green_Pink
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#24
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#24
(Original post by nebelbon)
Individual freedoms and all that rubbish.

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I certainly believe denying medical care is an impediment to the freedoms we supposedly enjoy.
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Aph
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#25
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#25
(Original post by nebelbon)
We can hope.

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People don't respond well to being told they must do something so forcing people to lose weight ect. Is stupid because the need help not an iron fist to do so.
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DaveSmith99
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#26
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#26
Aye
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InnerTemple
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#27
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#27
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
I believe they usually take out private insurance anyway, and yes, that is the way the NHS is going.
Sports insurance policies will generally provide income protection, equipment cover, accidental death etc.

Even if there are policies which cover medical costs, such a policy is not compulsory. I go skiing and only take out a policy to cover my health care abroad.



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username1524603
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#28
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#28
Nay - Obesity and smoking can increases the risk of complications during routine surgery, it seems entirely sensible to refuse treatment until the patients are in a better condition for surgery. Weight loss and quite smoking groups are already widely available, it's now down to an individual's initiative to make the effort in attending leading to improvements.

Following on from this, the NHS in Devon is facing pressures with increasing demand. A process needs to be drawn in deciding who has priority in these treatments. I feel those people who purposely waste their lives away by smoking and obesity deserve to be placed at the bottom of the list and continually bumped down if needs be. Examples of crashing a car or skiing injuries have been given but these fall short. Car crashes and skiing accidents are that, accidents. Obesity or smoking is not an accident.
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InnerTemple
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#29
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#29
I find the nays from UKIP a but rich considering their real life counterpart wants to reduce measures aimed at deterring smoking.


(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
Car crashes and skiing accidents are that, accidents. Obesity or smoking is not an accident.
Skiing and driving recklessly are not accidents. One decides to do such a thing.

Ultimately you have two situations where someone has put themselves in a situation where they are at greater risk of injury.

One by sliding down snowy mountains and the other by smoking x cigarettes a day.

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That Bearded Man
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#30
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#30
(Original post by InnerTemple)
Sports insurance policies will generally provide income protection, equipment cover, accidental death etc.

Even if there are policies which cover medical costs, such a policy is not compulsory. I go skiing and only take out a policy to cover my health care abroad.



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My casual skiing isn't insured, so I do rely on the health service in Norway, should I succumb to an accident.
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Kittiara
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#31
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#31
(Original post by nebelbon)
100% nay.

The NHS know what they are talking about; you don't. Leave it to the professionals.

Also, do you live in Devon or something?


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Nopes, I live in the north of England. Some news items that caught my attention lately just happened to come from Devon .
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username1524603
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#32
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#32
(Original post by InnerTemple)
I find the nays from UKIP a but rich considering their real life counterpart wants to reduce measures aimed at deterring smoking.

Skiing and driving recklessly are not accidents. One decides to do such a thing.

Ultimately you have two situations where someone has put themselves in a situation where they are at greater risk of injury.

One by sliding down snowy mountains and the other by smoking x cigarettes a day.
Another Farage myth there, measures must be overhauled to be more effective. Measures should not be reduced, an ideal example of this would be plain packaging which does nothing but help counterfeiters. One decides to ski and one decides to drive but one does not decide to ski head first into a rock, or drive to flip a car. Crashing is synonymous with skiing and driving like obesity is with overeating, and disease is with excessive smoking. When starting to ski or starting to drive one plans to do the activities safely. It is impossible to overeat safely or smoke safely.
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That Bearded Man
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Aph)
Worried this may not pass due to the split in the left.
I don't see one?
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That Bearded Man
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Aph)
People don't respond well to being told they must do something so forcing people to lose weight ect. Is stupid because the need help not an iron fist to do so.
It varies. On the other hand, some people couldn't care less about their diet, as they have no immediate health issues, when it causes them to miss their surgery, then they may realise that losing it weight is a necessity. Obesity isn't an acceptable life choice folks, at all.
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Kittiara
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
Nay - Obesity and smoking can increases the risk of complications during routine surgery, it seems entirely sensible to refuse treatment until the patients are in a better condition for surgery. Weight loss and quite smoking groups are already widely available, it's now down to an individual's initiative to make the effort in attending leading to improvements.

Following on from this, the NHS in Devon is facing pressures with increasing demand. A process needs to be drawn in deciding who has priority in these treatments. I feel those people who purposely waste their lives away by smoking and obesity deserve to be placed at the bottom of the list and continually bumped down if needs be. Examples of crashing a car or skiing injuries have been given but these fall short. Car crashes and skiing accidents are that, accidents. Obesity or smoking is not an accident.
Smokers have been undergoing routine surgery for many decades, if not longer. Why should it all of a sudden not be okay for a smoker to undergo surgery?

"Purposely wasting their lives away" is emotive language. "Deserve" is rather loaded as well. Who are we to say that someone doesn't deserve something we expect to receive and would be ticked off about should it be taken away from us? Hardly anyone lives a perfectly healthy lifestyle. Plenty of people don't get enough exercise. Most people will eat unhealthy food from time to time. I know I eat the occasional Chinese meal or curry, or I'll have white bread rather than wholemeal, or I'll have a chocolate bar. I know that they're not very good for me.

Every weekend lots of people go out drinking more than they probably should. Some do this nearly every weekend. I don't see the NHS suggesting that those drinkers should be denied surgery. And all around the UK people are enjoying casual intimate relations, and they don't always do so in a very safe manner. I don't see it being suggested that those people, who are arguably placing their health at risk as well, should not be permitted routine surgery. So, really, were should it stop? Going down that route, the amount of people permitted routine surgery without being badgered about their lifestyle would be minute.

Personally, I don't feel that comfortable with that level of interference by a state-supported organisation, and I didn't think that UKIP embraced such interference, either. Especially when you take into consideration that smokers and obese people contribute to the NHS through their taxes. If they are to be denied surgery, should they receive a refund or discount?
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Kittiara
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#36
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#36
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
It varies. On the other hand, some people couldn't care less about their diet, as they have no immediate health issues, when it causes them to miss their surgery, then they may realise that losing it weight is a necessity. Obesity isn't an acceptable life choice folks, at all.
I don't believe in a punitive approach, especially when it comes to healthcare. A delay in surgery could make things worse rather than better. Not to mention, if someone needs surgery on their knee, postponing this surgery is not going to help someone exercise! Such measures could also prevent people from going to their GP in the first place, out of fear or embarrassment, which again could lead to an unnecessary increase in health problems.

Health care is something that shouldn't be messed with, in my opinion. Everyone should have equal access to it.

Besides, when we get to morbid obesity, there may well be links to mental health problems. I don't think many people would reach that stage of being overweight, and stay at that level, without some underlying issue. I'm all for supporting people to lose weight, but the issues surrounding morbid obesity can be complex and are unlikely to be helped by the denial of surgery.
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Aph
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#37
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#37
(Original post by Kittiara)
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Completely agree with all your points. Have you seen my post in green chat? It seemed like the sorta thing you would be good at making a bill on.
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Kittiara
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Aph)
Completely agree with all your points. Have you seen my post in green chat? It seemed like the sorta thing you would be good at making a bill on.
Thanks! I'll go look .
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Green_Pink
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#39
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#39
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
I don't see one?
Birchington (although he's on the right of our party), Chlorophile and yourself don't seem to be in support whereas the other left-wingers so far are.

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
It varies. On the other hand, some people couldn't care less about their diet, as they have no immediate health issues, when it causes them to miss their surgery, then they may realise that losing it weight is a necessity. Obesity isn't an acceptable life choice folks, at all.
For a start, it's not a choice or something easy to deal with for many people. Biologically some people are simply more prone to carrying weight than others, and beyond that there's issues such as addictions to fatty foods and the lack of opportunity to exercise with increasingly hectic work lives and a lack of cheap and accessible community facilities. It's not as easy as saying people need to put more effort into it and we shouldn't deride people for being obese any more than you, as a former Labour Prime Minister, would attack someone for the "life choice" of being unemployed.

Secondly, even if it were​ a choice - why is that any of your business when it doesn't effect your life?
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GoldenEmblem277
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#40
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#40
Abstain. There could be better ways of doing this. But I do agree that discrimination shouldn't be allowed in the NHS.
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