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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Anyone who places any value in the overall league table rankings of universities should re-assess their suitability to be in higher education at all.

    Subject rankings are more worthwhile, but are still skewered by things irrelevant to an undergraduate experience like research rating and other factors like student satisfaction which are not objectively compared but subject entirely to the student's expectations prior to beginning the course (such that those at Heriot-Watt are more satisfied than those at Imperial College London). The way more valid factors like graduate prospects are measured is also irritating, since they rarely take account of the type of work being done after the course, and we are consequently expected to believe that Oxford and Cambridge endow their graduates with significantly poorer graduate prospects than other universities.

    Ultimately, they're a group of steaming turds that should not impact anyone's university choices.
    Actually for a degree (like my degree) Law, prestige does play a part. A grad at any of the top 20 Law schools would be better than say Heriot-Watt by a country mile. And the subject tables are pointless, go on "what counts as a good university if i want to become a solicitor" and see for yourself how a degree at say Leicester (ranked 27th) is worth much more than say Aberdeen (ranked 12th)
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    (Original post by TheMagican)
    Hmm, Edinburgh actually i would say is as good as Lancaster, as for loughbrough yes it is better. Personally i never have seen why Bristol is seen by many as a top 10, in my opinion it is a top 15 but i would pick lancaster, york or the others around that level.
    Are you coming to this conclusion because of its student satisfaction-inspired decline in national league tables or because you actually have a good knowledge of the educational standards of all of these universities? I suspect it is not the latter. Bristol has been recognised as a top ten university for decades. Yes, I go to Bristol.

    A few well-sourced Wikipedia quotations for you to consider:

    Bristol has been ranked 29th by the QS World University Rankings, and is ranked amongst the top ten of UK universities by QS, THE, and ARWU.[10][11][12]
    League tables usually place Bristol within the top ten universities in the United Kingdom and it attracts many academically gifted students. For example, 21 July 2011 edition of Times Higher Education reported that Bristol was fifth in a UK league table for the highest proportion of students with A-level grades AAB or better. Internationally, the 2012/2013 QS World University Rankings[73] placed Bristol at 28th overall in the world. The rankings also placed Bristol at 15th in the world in terms of reputation with employers, placing higher than several American Ivy League universities, including Princeton University, Cornell and UPenn. Another international ranking, the Shanghai Jiao Tong University Academic Ranking of World Universities, placed Bristol 64th globally in 2013[74] The Times Higher Education World University Ranking placed Bristol at 66th in 2011.[75]
    According to data published in The Sunday Times Bristol has the sixth-highest percentage of 'good honours' of any UK university.[77] In the 2010 Centre for Higher Education's Development's Excellence Rankings, Bristol is one of only four UK Universities (Oxford, UCL and Manchester) to be rated Excellent in all seven departments.[78]
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    The course, the nebulous position it was seen to hold by employers of the profession I want to enter, its location, its aesthetic standards, its living environment, how work was assessed and how many students achieved a 1st. Unistats was extremely useful in getting objective information specific to the course.
    May I ask what university you chose?
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    (Original post by Morrisseya)
    Obviously it varies by subject. But, in your opinion, what are the top 10 universities in the UK, overall? (Re: prestige/job prospects/everything).
    Oxford
    Cambridge
    LSE
    Imperial
    UCL
    Warwick
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Are you coming to this conclusion because of its student satisfaction-inspired decline in national league tables or because you actually have a good knowledge of the educational standards of all of these universities? I suspect it is not the latter. Bristol has been recognised as a top ten university for decades. Yes, I go to Bristol.

    A few well-sourced Wikipedia quotations for you to consider:
    Well neither of us have "good knowledge of educational standards of all these universities" as i have not been to all of them, it was just a opinion. Also my other post to you outlines serious flaws in your argument about rankings either way. When I thought Bristol to not be in that top 10 bracket it was not me using these rankings (that you described as "Anyone who places any value in the overall league table rankings of universities should re-assess their suitability to be in higher education at all.") but a subjective opinion as i just never thought it to have a international reputation to that of say Imperial.
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    (Original post by TheMagican)
    Actually for a degree (like my degree) Law, prestige does play a part. A grad at any of the top 20 Law schools would be better than say Heriot-Watt by a country mile. And the subject tables are pointless, go on "what counts as a good university if i want to become a solicitor" and see for yourself how a degree at say Leicester (ranked 27th) is worth much more than say Aberdeen (ranked 12th)
    At no point did I say prestige did not matter. What I said is that employers' perception of universities is not governed by their position in league tables, making valuing them for law utterly pointless. Talk to nulli tertius or any other extremely well-informed law graduate and they will back this. They have their own preconceived beliefs about universities; lawyers do not waste precious working hours pouring over league tables.

    I was not suggesting that Heriot-Watt was superior, quite the reverse - go back and read that again.

    Since Scotland England operate on different legal systems, Aberdeen and Leicester will supply different law degrees. You are comparing apples and oranges.

    Looking at subject tables is therefore more beneficial than the main ones even for law, since they will at least give you an idea of the sort of education, such as staff:students ratio, you can expect to receive for that course at that university. Main league tables provide you no benefit whatsoever.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    At no point did I say prestige did not matter. What I said is that employers' perception of universities is not governed by their position in league tables, making valuing them for law utterly pointless. Talk to nulli tertius or any other extremely well-informed law graduate and they will back this. They have their own preconceived beliefs about universities; lawyers do not waste precious working hours pouring over league tables.

    I was not suggesting that Heriot-Watt was superior, quite the reverse - go back and read that again.

    Since Scotland England operate on different legal systems, Aberdeen and Leicester will supply different law degrees. You are comparing apples and oranges.

    Looking at subject tables is therefore more beneficial than the main ones even for law, since they will at least give you an idea of the sort of education, such as staff:students ratio, you can expect to receive for that course at that university. Main league tables provide you no benefit whatsoever.
    Firstly, Aberdeen do provide in a 4 year course a English qualifying Law degree so instead we are comparing apples to apples. Lawyers do not waste time on League tables, instead i am sure that most Magic circle firms for example would recruit candidates from a select few universities hence why people say to do Law you should be looking at the very best universities. I don't think rankings matter too much though, since a magic circle candidate holds far more than just a fancy named university. And I repeat, the subject tables are not as useful as they are made out to be, go on Allen and Overy and compare two universities (like i used Leicester and Aberdeen earlier) and see the number of grads at these firms and you will learn that such firms favour certain universities (oxbridge over say Brunel)
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    (Original post by TheMagican)
    Firstly, Aberdeen do provide in a 4 year course a English qualifying Law degree so instead we are comparing apples to apples.
    I am doubtful that this course is the one that your 17th in the UK subject ranking applied to. Could you cite your source?

    Lawyers do not waste time on League tables, instead i am sure that most Magic circle firms for example would recruit candidates from a select few universities hence why people say to do Law you should be looking at the very best universities.
    Magic circle chambers refer almost entirely from Oxbridge, and firms are not much more liberal. This doesn't support anything you've said or dispute anything I've said.

    I don't think rankings matter too much though, since a magic circle candidate holds far more than just a fancy named university. And I repeat, the subject tables are not as useful as they are made out to be, go on Allen and Overy and compare two universities (like i used Leicester and Aberdeen earlier) and see the number of grads at these firms and you will learn that such firms favour certain universities (oxbridge over say Brunel)
    I never disputed this. What you fail to realise is that not all law students are aiming for or have the ability to mount a competitive application to magic circle firms and chambers, and differentiating between other universities based on grounds like staff:student ratio and percentage of good honours are useful factors for these people, who incidentally make up the vast majority of law students. The overall table is far too polluted by irrelevant factors and questionable methodology as to make them totally useless. I have been researching this stuff for about two years and with respect learning that big firms prefer Oxbridge to Brunel is slightly below me at this stage.
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    (Original post by TheMagican)
    Well neither of us have "good knowledge of educational standards of all these universities" as i have not been to all of them, it was just a opinion.
    I was merely suggesting that it was a worthless contribution because it wasn't based on anything solid. I went on to suggest that it was an opinion worth revising in the face of unanimous expert opinion.

    Also my other post to you outlines serious flaws in your argument about rankings either way. When I thought Bristol to not be in that top 10 bracket it was not me using these rankings (that you described as "Anyone who places any value in the overall league table rankings of universities should re-assess their suitability to be in higher education at all.") but a subjective opinion as i just never thought it to have a international reputation to that of say Imperial.
    I have responded to this with an ample selection of qualified opinion which unanimously disagrees with you. Bristol having less of a prestigious international reputation than Imperial is not evidence that it is not within the top 10 British universities. I redirect you to the previous post of mine that provides a great deal of expert opinion identifying it as such.
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    (Original post by Schrödingers Cat)
    May I ask what university you chose?
    I applied to and am now at Bristol.
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    Oxford
    Cambridge
    Imperial
    LSE
    UCL
    Durham
    KCL
    Edinburgh
    Bristol
    Exeter

    And then places like York and Warick
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)

    Since Scotland England operate on different legal systems, Aberdeen and Leicester will supply different law degrees. You are comparing apples and oranges.
    .
    You can get an English qualifying law degree from Aberdeen. A few years ago in an attempt to stem the flow of Scots opting for English law degrees over Scot ones they began pushing some form of joint course I believe, though I don't know if it's still going.
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    (Original post by jenkinsear)
    You can get an English qualifying law degree from Aberdeen. A few years ago in an attempt to stem the flow of Scots opting for English law degrees over Scot ones they began pushing some form of joint course I believe, though I don't know if it's still going.
    My information was outdated. However, I remain sceptical that this course is rated 12th in the UK for law.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    My information was outdated. However, I remain sceptical that this course is rated 12th in the UK for law.
    Realistically if you turned up to apply for a training contract at a top firm/postgrad at Oxbridge/good pupillage I expect you'd struggle with a degree from Aberdeen. 12th I'd say not, it's probably in that middle ground with universities like Lancaster or Kent in my eyes.
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    KCL 100% in the top 10. Ranked 16 in the world in the recent QS world rankings. No idea why the domestic rankings always puts it in the 20s range.
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    Cambridge
    Oxford
    Imperial
    LSE
    UCL
    Warwick
    Durham
    Bristol
    Nottingham
    Bath


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    (Original post by Schrödingers Cat)
    - Cambridge
    - Oxford
    - Imperial
    - UCL
    - Durham
    - Warwick
    - Manchester
    - Birmingham
    - Nottingham
    - Bath
    The closest to the most accurate order^
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    (Original post by The Juan)
    The closest to the most accurate order^
    By what measure are Birmingham, Nottingham and Bath superior to Edinburgh, Bristol and St Andrews? These rankings are such utter childish nonsense. Universities can only really be said to exist in groupings.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    By what measure are Birmingham, Nottingham and Bath superior to Edinburgh, Bristol and St Andrews? These rankings are such utter childish nonsense. Universities can only really be said to exist in groupings.
    I was more focused on the first 7. Too many people are ranking UCL low and considering it is on a mass expansion of its academic infrastructure(it is buying up a lot of colleges around London) and has one of the best global reputations I think it deserves a no. 4 spot followed by imperial, oxford and Cambridge. In addition to that Manchester has been somewhat sidelined but when you consider it's global reputation and research development I think it definitely deserves it's position in that respect. Then of course Durham and warwick come in to it.

    It was just after reading post after post it was one of the most accurate in my opinion. But you are right when it comes to Edinburgh and Bristol deserving a place no doubt.
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    Cambridge
    Oxford
    LSE
    Imperial
    UCL
    Warwick
    Durham
    St Andrews

    Edinburgh
    Bath

    (first 8 are pretty much certain for me and the last two are pretty ambiguous as approximately 5 more unis imo could probably contest their places i.e. Exeter, Bath)
 
 
 
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