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    (Original post by Green_Pink)
    It's a joke. It made me laugh. Seriously, not everything is a conspiracy with corrupt lefties who just hate everyone else. It wouldn't have made any difference to me if it had been proposed by you or nebelbon instead!
    Fair enough.
    But if we were to be serious about this (which you guys clearly aren't willing to and I'll stop insisting)... this is flawed as crap, and I'm not talking about the fact that Santa may not exist (because he clearly does).
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    (Original post by Green_Pink)
    It's a joke. It made me laugh. Seriously, not everything is a conspiracy with corrupt lefties who just hate everyone else. It wouldn't have made any difference to me if it had been proposed by you or nebelbon instead!
    You seem to be the only reasonable member of the Government.

    Will you be aiming to work closely with North Korea this term? They have slave labour wages and horrific living conditions - your Government MP seems to think this makes a country reputable.
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    :woo: ukip attacking the government:rolleyes:
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    You seem to be the only reasonable member of the Government.

    Will you be aiming to work closely with North Korea this term? They have slave labour wages and horrific living conditions - your Government MP seems to think this makes a country reputable.
    Personally I took that statement as part of the joke. All three of the countries listed have pretty notoriously bad records on human and worker's rights, but it was being pointed out that perhaps even none of them compare to the treatment of "Santa's Elves". I can assure you that we will not be looking to co-operate specifically with North Korea.

    And I am far from the only reasonable member of Government, I have every confidence in Liberal, Green and Labour MPs to deliver for the electorate!
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    (Original post by Green_Pink)
    Personally I took that statement as part of the joke. All three of the countries listed have pretty notoriously bad records on human and worker's rights, but it was being pointed out that perhaps even none of them compare to the treatment of "Santa's Elves". I can assure you that we will not be looking to co-operate specifically with North Korea.

    And I am far from the only reasonable member of Government, I have every confidence in Liberal, Green and Labour MPs to deliver for the electorate!
    That is good to know.

    I forgot about Ray! You and Ray are the only decent ones.
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    That is good to know.

    I forgot about Ray! You and Ray are the only decent ones.
    Thanks for the vote of confidence.
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    (Original post by O133)
    Aye! We're sharing barnetlad's duties between us now!
    If you don't have to pay stamp duty, council tax, train or bus fares and can have six months a year of continuous solar energy, what would the living wage be at the North Pole? Less than the £10 per hour by 2020 advocated by the Green Party?
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Thanks for the vote of confidence.
    Aph i don't agree with you politically at all but i do admire your dedication! You are the most active government MP by far.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    If you don't have to pay stamp duty, council tax, train or bus fares and can have six months a year of continuous solar energy, what would the living wage be at the North Pole? Less than the £10 per hour by 2020 advocated by the Green Party?
    I would suggest £2 per hour with that doubling for over time with 6 weeks paid vacation.
    (Original post by nebelbon)
    Aph i don't agree with you politically at all but i do admire your dedication! You are the most active government MP by far.
    think I'm the most active MP in general but ok
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    (Original post by Aph)
    I would suggest £2 per hour with that doubling for over time with 6 weeks paid vacation.
    think I'm the most active MP in general but ok
    Good point, i'd say you probably were
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Considering those countries listed as being reputable are prone for late-payment, no-payment, pay based on productivity, barely £2000 per year for low-paid factory workers, few employment rights, food inflation regularly outstripping wage increases, and minimum wage in some areas less that £1200 per year. I would rather be an elf working in the Lapland. If a bill is going to be a joke bill at least add in some realities.
    (Original post by nebelbon)
    So the green party now thinks that Slave labour wages and horrific living conditions make a country 'reputable'.

    These socialists seem to be confused.

    Can i confirm that the green party does indeed support slave labour wages?
    (Original post by Fernand126)
    Wait, wait, wait.
    We're accusing Santa of not giving proper work conditions but granting such a classification to China?
    You guys must live in a parallel universe.
    Honestly?

    The whole reason I added those three countries - having deliberately checked that they do indeed host sweatshops - is to make a point. This may be a jokey Motion, but I wanted to highlight the fact that sweatshop conditions are unacceptable. Yet, many corporations are quite happy doing business in those countries, and having their products made in these countries, all the while receiving support from our RL government, who all too often place profit over workers' rights and living standards.

    I thought that this sarcastic note was quite clear, just as my references to Black Friday would be quite clear.

    Also, as I have mentioned several times by now, my views are my own, and my private motions are not in any way, shape of form linked to my membership of the Green Party. Therefore, they should not be taken as a reflection of the Green Party's views. That is why I make them private, after all .
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    If you don't have to pay stamp duty, council tax, train or bus fares and can have six months a year of continuous solar energy, what would the living wage be at the North Pole? Less than the £10 per hour by 2020 advocated by the Green Party?
    Imagine how much you spend on heating in the winter though (although I bet there's a decent amount of wind power available) plus bringing food when seal meat becomes boring, and think of all the extra air kilometres shipping all the materials up to the North Pole to then ship the gifts back out.

    Also, we ought to be concerned about Santa's flying hours and his consumption of spirits bearing in mind the law on drunkenness aboard an aircraft. Perhaps the House would support me in calling for an information campaign calling on the public to ditch the sherry on the fireplace for a small glass of orange juice.
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    (Original post by Kittiara)
    Honestly?

    The whole reason I added those three countries - having deliberately checked that they do indeed host sweatshops - is to make a point. This may be a jokey Motion, but I wanted to highlight the fact that sweatshop conditions are unacceptable. Yet, most corporations are quite happy doing business in those countries, and having their products made in these countries, all the while receiving support from our RL government, who all too often place profit over workers' rights and living standards.

    I thought that this sarcastic note was quite clear, just as my references to Black Friday would be quite clear.

    Also, as I have mentioned several times by now, my views are my own, and my private motions are not in any way, shape of form linked to my membership of the Green Party. Therefore, they should not be taken as a reflection of the Green Party's views. That is why I make them private, after all .
    Your principles about making the point are automatically contradicted by your lifestyle. You wear clothes most likely made in those countries, you have electronics at home most likely made in those countries, you have a mobile phone made in one of those countries, the same goes for your laptop, internet router and probably your washing machine, oven, and microwave. You drink tea picked by farm workers paid very little, chocolate by workers in similar conditions, and decorate your house with furnishings made there. The point is this, we all do but lots of us do not care enough to want to do anything, you are happy to talk the talk about awful conditions but you are not concerned enough to start boycotting companies associated with the sweatshops and manufacturing labour conditions. It is easy to talk but more difficult to take action. Similar to champagne socialism this could be champagne outrage.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Your principles about making the point are automatically contradicted by your lifestyle. You wear clothes most likely made in those countries, you have electronics at home most likely made in those countries, you have a mobile phone made in one of those countries, the same goes for your laptop, internet router and probably your washing machine, oven, and microwave. The point is this, you are happy to talk the talk about awful conditions but you are not concerned enough to start boycotting companies associated with the sweatshops and manufacturing labour conditions. It is easy to talk the talk but more difficult to take action. Similar to champagne socialism this could be champagne outrage.
    And you know this how?

    Even if I lived the kind of lifestyle you describe, does this not highlight the pervasiveness of the problem? Should we not address it? Should we not champion workers' rights, aim for more British industry (which would create more jobs, always a good thing), or at least ensure that companies take responsibility for the work conditions and the health and safety of sweatshop employees?
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    (Original post by Kittiara)
    And you know this how?

    Even if I lived the kind of lifestyle you describe, does this not highlight the pervasiveness of the problem? Should we not address it? Should we not champion workers' rights, aim for more British industry (which would create more jobs, always a good thing), or at least ensure that companies take responsibility for the work conditions and the health and safety of sweatshop employees?
    I think we can both agree it's not difficult to make the claim. 90.6% of all computers are made in China, 80% of all energy saving lamps, 74% of solar cell panels, 70.6% of all mobile phones, 60% of cement, and 48% of coal. China makes 50% of everything we own, but more importantly it makes a high percentage of the desirable things we want like smartphones, TV's, home appliances. Adding to this the output from the other countries mentioned in the motion and they form a group with manufacturing dominance on a massive scale.

    I think British industry is important but short of using protectionist measures it is difficult to compete. Using the sourced figures in my previous comment it is cheaper to produce things in China and ship them in bulk all the way to Britain. The economics don't add up for British manufacturing. As a starting point we cannot pay workers in Britain £1800 per year, immediately the wage cost of a company has been pushed up.

    It would be nice to have a perfect world with people working in the wonderful conditions we imagine but it is not achievable. China actually has numerous employee rights, as a number and standard China is similar to the EU but they are not enforced by the authorities. The only effective thing we do is boycott companies. A chunk of the problem with poor workers' rights, company treatment and low wages comes form culture or corruption. No matter how much money we throw at the countries, how many laws we introduce over here, how much political pressure we add, things will not change. The people of China and India need to bring the change; not us. The poor conditions and slavery are atrocities against humans. The doings of ISIS are atrocities but like with ISIS we need to stay out and let things sort themselves out. In the early days of the industrial revolution Britain was similar to China. Change takes time but it cannot be rushed, it will eventually come.

    There is a winder debate to be had though. With improved conditions inevitably comes increased demand for the luxuries we have in our life. Billions of people are soon going to be wanting cars, electronics, electricity and other similar things. All require vast amounts of energy which current green technology cannot fulfill the demand of. India is building two new coal-fired power stations per day to meet the demand. This is also why I am skeptical of any efforts to try and lead the world in emission reduction. The human desires outweigh the desire for less pollution. We also have desires, we desire an affordable standard of living with a luxurious life. We currently have that but with modern socialisation happening in China and India we face having the prices of our luxuries driven up. Manufacturing is a long-term cost so we will have a period of uncontrolled inflation until manufacturing can be relocated to the next cheap-labour area which will probably be a country in Africa. Are we willing to fight for the rights of other workers on the other side of the world even if it leads to a decrease in our standard of living? These questions are not easy to answer as we all appreciate.
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    I didn't think the North Pole could be claimed by a singular body, so therefore, I think Santa Clause has found an international loophole. I really don't think we have the power to do this, also Santa Clause has brought much joy and happiness to the children of the UK, I don't think as a country we have much responsibility towards the foreign elves and instead should be working hard to benefit the children of the UK, therefore for that reason I encourage all to vote nay.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    I think we can both agree it's not difficult to make the claim. 90.6% of all computers are made in China, 80% of all energy saving lamps, 74% of solar cell panels, 70.6% of all mobile phones, 60% of cement, and 48% of coal. China makes 50% of everything we own, but more importantly it makes a high percentage of the desirable things we want like smartphones, TV's, home appliances. Adding to this the output from the other countries mentioned in the motion and they form a group with manufacturing dominance on a massive scale.

    I think British industry is important but short of using protectionist measures it is difficult to compete. Using the sourced figures in my previous comment it is cheaper to produce things in China and ship them in bulk all the way to Britain. The economics don't add up for British manufacturing. As a starting point we cannot pay workers in Britain £1800 per year, immediately the wage cost of a company has been pushed up.

    It would be nice to have a perfect world with people working in the wonderful conditions we imagine but it is not achievable. China actually has numerous employee rights, as a number and standard China is similar to the EU but the they are not enforced by the authorities. Lots of the problem with poor worker's rights, company treatment and low wages comes form culture or corruption. No matter how much money we throw at the countries, how many laws we introduce over here, how much political pressure we add, things will not change. The people of China and India need to bring the change; not us. The poor conditions and slavery are atrocities against humans. The doings of ISIS are atrocities but like with ISIS we need to stay out and let things sort themselves out. In the early days of the industrial revolution Britain was similar to China. Change takes time but it cannot be rushed and will eventually come.
    I would agree that it's becoming increasingly difficult to avoid products made in sweatshops. It has been difficult for a good while. I do my best - if I know that a company is involved in such schemes, I stay clear of their products where possible - but sometimes it's unclear and, at times, it's unavoidable. I very much agree that the poor conditions and slavery are an atrocity. I also believe, though, that whilst, yes, the main pressure for change has to come from within those countries, as consumers of these products we should push for change as well.

    If companies think that we don't care about where their products are made, why should they change? Sure, one would hope for morals, but that's not being realistic. The British public, or at least that part of the British public that cares, should make it clear that the appalling conditions are unacceptable to them and that they expect better.

    There are quite a few companies making millions if not billions of pounds in profit. They could afford to hire British workers. They could afford to pay decent wages to overseas workers. They could withdraw their business from overseas factories if conditions in those factories are unsatisfactory. This would lead to better conditions, as factories won't want to lose the business. Where the drive for profit overrules respect for employees, there is a problem. Without employees, business would be nothing (well, except for family-run businesses and the such).

    Am I being idealistic in hoping for change? Perhaps. We live in a consumer society where big business is king, and the drive for large profit is sacred. I would love for employees and consumers to realise that they do have power, though. If enough people exercise this power, change can happen.
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    So the green party now thinks that Slave labour wages and horrific living conditions make a country 'reputable'.

    These socialists seem to be confused.

    Can i confirm that the green party does indeed support slave labour wages?

    PMB.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Thanks for the vote of confidence.
    Lol.
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    I think the crux of the joke might be going over some people's heads. I'll probably abstain though seeing as I don't wish to support, even as a joke, the working conditions prevalent in some of the (real) work places in the developing economies.
 
 
 
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