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Do you believe fascism is of the far right? watch

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    (Original post by saayagain)
    You didn't read all my posts then. Big government is ok if the people truly control the government.
    I don't believe that is ever really possible. Big government can only grow at the expense of wider society and creates a governing class with enormous power.

    (Original post by saayagain)
    Big government can protect us from big companies however in its current set up it is geared towards supporting big companies. This is because the ideology of the government is free market capitalism. They have relinquished the control of the economy to private entities and take advice from these entities on how to better their economy by suggesting regulation or spouting economic theory.
    We don't have anything close to a free market. State involvement in the economy has either distorted many aspects of a free market or replaced them entirely or created a private profits/state losses situation.

    (Original post by saayagain)
    If the government was a socialist government...I mean a proper socialist government, these private entities would be heavily regulated or nationalized.
    Good luck with that. Socialist economies have been both undemocratic and economically weak.
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    (Original post by saayagain)

    Big government can protect us from big companies however in its current set up it is geared towards supporting big companies. This is because the ideology of the government is free market capitalism. .
    It's really only free market capitalism for the little guys. It's more coney protectionist capitalism. Where the big mega capitalists only inflict market forces on people when it benefits themselves.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    I don't believe that is ever really possible. Big government can only grow at the expense of wider society and creates a governing class with enormous power.
    So you want small government and big corporate power.


    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    We don't have anything close to a free market. State involvement in the economy has either distorted many aspects of a free market or replaced them entirely or created a private profits/state losses situation.
    Maybe its because the concept of the free market is flawed.


    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    Good luck with that. Socialist economies have been both undemocratic and economically weak.
    Historically perhaps but I'm not the typical socialist.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    It's really only free market capitalism for the little guys. It's more coney protectionist capitalism. Where the big mega capitalists only inflict market forces on people when it benefits themselves.
    Well when capitalism promotes a system of achieving your self interests, what do you expect?
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    Well when capitalism promotes a system of achieving your self interests, what do you expect?
    It helps to get people who have a phobia of a large state to stop supporting an establishment which props up a large state when it suits them. It's always good to get an accurate as possible understanding of what is going on. That means looking further than what governments say they are doing.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    Your faith in big government is disturbing although very common.

    Big government does not protect us from big companies, quite the opposite actually. Big government favours the biggest corporations by erecting barriers to entry for competitors through over-regulation and also because politicians love redirecting public funds to those who funded their political campaigns.

    We do have extensive government intervention in the economy. Maybe its not exactly the kind of intervention that you favour, but it surely exists.
    This is true. Yes Minister tries to make this known in that episode Bed of Nails (I think it was):

    "All government departments are lobbies for the pressure groups they deal with. The Department of Education lobbies the government on behalf of teachers, the Department of Health lobbies for the doctors and hospital unions, the Department of Energy lobbies for oil companies and so on. Each department of State is actually controlled by the people it is supposed to be controlling."

    Big government needlessly drains the nation's resources and benefits no one but minority interests.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    It helps to get people who have a phobia of a large state to stop supporting an establishment which props up a large state when it suits them. It's always good to get an accurate as possible understanding of what is going on. That means looking further than what governments say they are doing.
    Unfortunately the system debilitates the people so that won't happen until people's lives are ****.

    Our generation is definitely ****ed...
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    There are three entities that can have control of society and hence the world: Governments, Private Businesses or Individuals. Individuals never have control of society. It passes between governments and businesses. Small government means big private businesses and vice versa.

    Governments are supposed to be controlled by the individual so if these was the current situation I would like more government. More nationalization, more central planning. Not less so the private capitalists can do what they want with impunity.

    The real issue is how do people get control of government. The left is the only ideology that will pursue such a goal. The right are hypocrites. They say small government is good because it will make people free when in reality the control goes to those who control resources and production aka corporations.

    Big government + democracy = a better world.

    Right now we have Big government in certain areas (Small in the main areas i.e. the economy) + dictatorship = a ****ty world

    Right wing fascist ideology is the dominant ideology in the world. That's why you see so much sectarianism.
    you don't have private business executive-style power when you have a state that has a monopoly on force. if you don't have a government, you might do, but we're obviously not talking about anarchies, and "big private business" doesn't mean a lack of government stopping them having actual power, seeing as money isn't power
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    Depends what you think the most important qualities of fascism are. Sure, there's always the argument that fascist economics is largely centrist, but it's also little that couldn't be found in Keynes, or that a particularly social democratic government would object to, so it does seem a bit odd to consider it a major distinguishing feature of fascism. Using a two-dimensional scale and defining fascism as totalitarian centrism is a bit better, but that still doesn't make the ultra-nationalist and reactionary nature of it apparent.

    Also, the whole left-right as being about 'small/big government' is at best an oversimplification and at worst just plain wrong. It's based on the assumptions that 'government' and 'private':
    i) Are in diametric opposition.
    ii) That this dichotomy is the only important one.
    iii) That generally which of the two categories something falls into can be obviously identified.

    All three of which I would argue are wrong.
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    So you want small government and big corporate power.
    No, not at all. The bigger the government, the more advantages the wealthy have in securing policies which benefit them at the detriment to the poorest.

    (Original post by saayagain)
    Maybe its because the concept of the free market is flawed.
    How is it any more flawed than total socialism?
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    No, not at all. The bigger the government, the more advantages the wealthy have in securing policies which benefit them at the detriment to the poorest.
    So what is your solution? anarchism of some sort...


    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    How is it any more flawed than total socialism?
    socialism is a general term for an economy that puts people over profit

    My version of socialism is superior to any example in history.

    Use capitalist methods to produce socialist outcomes...
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    So what is your solution? anarchism of some sort...
    A small liberal state restricted from growing too big through strict constitutional procedures. Although I'm very sceptical of the possibility of ever getting the current mega-states and empires to shrink at all.

    (Original post by saayagain)
    socialism is a general term for an economy that puts people over profit

    My version of socialism is superior to any example in history.

    Use capitalist methods to produce socialist outcomes...
    No, socialism is the political philosophy that means of production should be controlled by the workers. For some this means big government, for others it doesn't.

    What is so special about your version of socialism?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I would describe the difference between fascism and the Leninist inspired communist regimes as being this.

    Fascist believe in a strict hierarchical order in society, both social and economic. An authoritarian government is required to hold it all in place. They will allow some form of capitalism to take place, but they are not right wing libertarians by any stretch of the imagination.

    A lot of communists believed a strong authoritarian government is required to create a "free" society with no hierarchy (makes it left wing). This freedom was the the freedom from economic exploitation (how they see capitalism) via the state running everything in a dogmatic way, this was somehow supposed to lead to communism when the state will then shrink away. Of course this never happened. But it was sued as justification for the propping up of a society that had insane levels of hierarchy, some probably believed in the communist dream whilst others just used it as a way to manipulate and control. When you compare the reality of Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia no one had much freedom. They were very similar. The authoritarian/libertarian part of the axis is incredibly important.

    Probably somewhat simplistic but that is how I see it.
    I actually completely agree; though maybe for different reasons. I think that the most important measure of a society is both in its economic and political freedom, with neither of them taking precedence over the other. I share your view that communist and fascist societies both lack these freedoms. Though perhaps a fascist society could be said to be slightly more "free" than a typical communist one, since economic freedom is allowed to a greater extent. This means people are still oppressed, but they aren't as poor as they are in a communist society.

    I therefore don't find it surprising that I have some difficulty distinguishing between what is fascist and communist. North Korea is communist (sorry, it is), since there is no economic freedom or political freedom. But China isn't, because there is quite a lot of economic freedom (compared to the 70s anyway). So is China fascist? You tell me. There is no political freedom, but there is some measure of economic freedom. I couldn't really argue with the proposition that China is a fascist country.

    Anyway, the most important thing is that they are both - communism and fascism - the arch enemy of liberal democracy.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)


    No, socialism is the political philosophy that means of production should be controlled by the workers. For some this means big government, for others it doesn't.

    What is so special about your version of socialism?
    Can't be bothered to elaborate on her sonny jim
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    Marxists, Communists, Bolshevik's killed tens of millions of people. Do not get caught up in labels. Communist revolution was actually financed by capitalists, it was a way of controlling the masses and seizing power.
 
 
 
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