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Congratulations to the Greek left! The movement against austerity.... Watch

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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Being against vindictive austerity based off of pseudo science doesn't make you a socialist/communists by itself.
    Interesting. What is this pseudo-science you refer to?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    This is the problem. It is framed that you can only be against this crap if you are an extreme political radical. Being against vindictive austerity based off of pseudo science doesn't make you a socialist/communists by itself.
    lol "pseudo science".

    Funny how capitalism gets blamed for the irresponsibility of governments.
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    good for Greece they are lovely people
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    lol "pseudo science".

    Funny how capitalism gets blamed for the irresponsibility of governments.
    That statement is utterly devoid of any real meaning. The two are heavily inter winded anyway.

    Mainstream economics does not even include the possibility of a recession/depression in their models. They are not a thing that can happen. Yet here we are living in one. A basic principle of a science is if your model can not predict reality something is wrong. Well mainstream economics did not predict the 2008 crisis in anyway. That shouldn't have been able to happen. Yet instead of looking to find out what went wrong, why were the theories unable to predict like a real social science they are just carrying on as normal and enacting the same kind of polices and economic thinking that caused the mess in the first place. It get treated as if it is a science but it isn't really one, therefore is a pseudo science.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    That statement is utterly devoid of any real meaning. The two are heavily inter winded anyway.

    Mainstream economics does not even include the possibility of a recession/depression in their models. They are not a thing that can happen. Yet here we are living in one. A basic principle of a science is if your model can not predict reality something is wrong. Well mainstream economics did not predict the 2008 crisis in anyway. That shouldn't have been able to happen. Yet instead of looking to find out what went wrong, why were the theories unable to predict like a real social science they are just carrying on as normal and enacting the same kind of polices and economic thinking that caused the mess in the first place. It get treated as if it is a science but it isn't really one, therefore is a pseudo science.
    There is widespread anger amongst students of economics in many universities that true economics is simply not being taught or explored. An economics that does not explain the staggering rise in inequality, the massive financial crisis, the bulk transfer of wealth from the middle class to the banks and hedge funds and the ongoing deflationary currency wars and austerity programmes that have followed is no economics at all.

    Basically neoliberal theory is dead and can be considered worthless. Ditto most of the current politicians who were versed in it.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There is widespread anger amongst students of economics in many universities that true economics is simply not being taught or explored. An economics that does not explain the staggering rise in inequality, the massive financial crisis, the bulk transfer of wealth from the middle class to the banks and hedge funds and the ongoing deflationary currency wars and austerity programmes that have followed is no economics at all.

    Basically neoliberal theory is dead and can be considered worthless. Ditto most of the current politicians who were versed in it.
    Of which Ed Balls is one of if I'm not mistaken. But apparently anger and opposition to all this crap is a non issue and I should just vote Labour to keep the Tories out. :rolleyes: Good thing the people of Greece didn't subscribe to this view, their version of labour (ie a supposed left wing government completely bending over to vested interests) got destroyed in favor of an actual left wing anti austerity party.

    The way I see it is these economists actually believe it all. Think it for the greater good,even though there own theory treated every one as being hedonists with no concern for anything other the increasing their own utility. The important business leaders and their political manages (politicians) latch onto this economic theory since it justifies them hording all the wealth. It's much easier to be greedy if it is for the greater good.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    That statement is utterly devoid of any real meaning. The two are heavily inter winded anyway.

    Mainstream economics does not even include the possibility of a recession/depression in their models. They are not a thing that can happen. Yet here we are living in one. A basic principle of a science is if your model can not predict reality something is wrong. Well mainstream economics did not predict the 2008 crisis in anyway. That shouldn't have been able to happen. Yet instead of looking to find out what went wrong, why were the theories unable to predict like a real social science they are just carrying on as normal and enacting the same kind of polices and economic thinking that caused the mess in the first place. It get treated as if it is a science but it isn't really one, therefore is a pseudo science.
    It's not devoid of meaning. I agree with you that that the two are heavily connected (well if you mean corporate capitalism) but that doesn't mean that it is devoid of real meaning.

    Yes, economics does include the possibility of recessions in their models, don't know where you are getting that from. We actually aren't in recession anymore.

    There are economists that predicted the crash. Not that many, sure, but if it were that easy to predict a crash then it would be easy to get rich.

    The policies that we are enacting now are quite different from before the crash. How is austerity (which doesn't go far enough and is targeting the wrong things imo) "the same kind of policies" as the profligate (debt based) spending of post 2000 Labour?

    If we hadn't run up massive deficits in the (largely debt-based) good times, which is contary to Keynesian thinking, then we wouldn't be in such a mess that we are in.

    We are in too much debt as a society as a whole. The government is in debt, people are in debt, businesses are in debt. More spending doesn't make any sense.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There is widespread anger amongst students of economics in many universities that true economics is simply not being taught or explored. An economics that does not explain the staggering rise in inequality, the massive financial crisis, the bulk transfer of wealth from the middle class to the banks and hedge funds and the ongoing deflationary currency wars and austerity programmes that have followed is no economics at all.

    Basically neoliberal theory is dead and can be considered worthless. Ditto most of the current politicians who were versed in it.
    Your posts get worse and worse by the day.

    I suppose the answer is socialism? That tried and tested successful economic model :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    That statement is utterly devoid of any real meaning. The two are heavily inter winded anyway.

    Mainstream economics does not even include the possibility of a recession/depression in their models. They are not a thing that can happen. Yet here we are living in one. A basic principle of a science is if your model can not predict reality something is wrong. Well mainstream economics did not predict the 2008 crisis in anyway. That shouldn't have been able to happen. Yet instead of looking to find out what went wrong, why were the theories unable to predict like a real social science they are just carrying on as normal and enacting the same kind of polices and economic thinking that caused the mess in the first place. It get treated as if it is a science but it isn't really one, therefore is a pseudo science.
    So what is the scientific solution?
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    I like Syriza. But the problem is where is this money going to come from? The books are looking better, and if interest repayment on debt was taken out they would be in surplus. But that surplus will not be enough to restore public services to pre-crash levels and end austerity. If they are to deliver on what they promise, to alleviate misery and kick start the economy, they need to borrow more. But no one will do that while they insist on debt cancellation. And if they don't carry out serious structural reforms while ending austerity Greece will be doomed to repeat it again.

    Writing off Greece's debt in return for them going back to the drachma could be an answer. A weakened currency could definitely kick start their exports and attract tourism. But Greek exports rely on imports just as much. And the inevitably high inflation rates of a new floating drachma would make imports expensive, which would be bad for business and cause more misery for the average Greek. There is the possibility that it could be pegged to the Euro, giving it more stability and making trade easier with the EU. But would a pegged currency really make that much of a difference?

    I wish Syriza all the best, I hope it really works out for them and Greece gets back on its feet. But only time can tell how successful they'll be.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    Your posts get worse and worse by the day.

    I suppose the answer is socialism? That tried and tested successful economic model :rolleyes:
    Clearly at minimum our understanding of what is going on in the world needs de-confusing, we need to strip out the views of neoliberals who clearly have a vested interest in selling a false version of reality.

    The next step is to create a new economics which takes into account the Global Commons, currently being mercilessly exploited, strip-mined and destroyed for short term profits and ignoring the real needs of human beings. If you want to attempt to smear that by comparing it with past failed models of state sovietism, feel free.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    That statement is utterly devoid of any real meaning. The two are heavily inter winded anyway.

    Mainstream economics does not even include the possibility of a recession/depression in their models. They are not a thing that can happen. Yet here we are living in one. A basic principle of a science is if your model can not predict reality something is wrong. Well mainstream economics did not predict the 2008 crisis in anyway. That shouldn't have been able to happen. Yet instead of looking to find out what went wrong, why were the theories unable to predict like a real social science they are just carrying on as normal and enacting the same kind of polices and economic thinking that caused the mess in the first place. It get treated as if it is a science but it isn't really one, therefore is a pseudo science.
    I can't comment on that since theory has appealed to me more than modelling (though i'm pretty sure they explain recessions quite well - albeit often miss the real world dynamic causes) but one criticism relevant to this is that undergraduate economists (most of our dear politicians do PPE or a degree with a Micro and Macro module thrown in) do not study dynamic modelling to a sufficient degree. Static models only go so far.

    One other critisism (not yet accepted widely) is that economic models assume human rationality that does not exist. Two such examples from a video i saw (research from behavioural economists in the USA).. in the first instance they auctioned off a $20 bill.. it went for $28 as competition drove up the price (a kind of your not getting it effect). The second example was the more common.. do you want $200 now or $220 in 6 six month... rationally, your cost of living will not have risen $20 in 6 months, therefore you should delay and go for the $220.. most people don't.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There is widespread anger amongst students of economics in many universities that true economics is simply not being taught or explored. An economics that does not explain the staggering rise in inequality, the massive financial crisis, the bulk transfer of wealth from the middle class to the banks and hedge funds and the ongoing deflationary currency wars and austerity programmes that have followed is no economics at all.

    Basically neoliberal theory is dead and can be considered worthless. Ditto most of the current politicians who were versed in it.
    This is the case on the right and the left. Austrian Economics is largely glossed over as is Marx (beyond his theory of value) and a lot gloss over Keynes. Whether this is simply due to the time needed or discreditation i don't know.

    (Original post by Swanbow)
    I like Syriza. But the problem is where is this money going to come from? The books are looking better, and if interest repayment on debt was taken out they would be in surplus. But that surplus will not be enough to restore public services to pre-crash levels and end austerity. If they are to deliver on what they promise, to alleviate misery and kick start the economy, they need to borrow more. But no one will do that while they insist on debt cancellation. And if they don't carry out serious structural reforms while ending austerity Greece will be doomed to repeat it again.

    Writing off Greece's debt in return for them going back to the drachma could be an answer. A weakened currency could definitely kick start their exports and attract tourism. But Greek exports rely on imports just as much. And the inevitably high inflation rates of a new floating drachma would make imports expensive, which would be bad for business and cause more misery for the average Greek. There is the possibility that it could be pegged to the Euro, giving it more stability and making trade easier with the EU. But would a pegged currency really make that much of a difference?

    I wish Syriza all the best, I hope it really works out for them and Greece gets back on its feet. But only time can tell how successful they'll be.
    If memory serves, Greece had a massive trade deficit before it even came into the Euro. Beyond shipping and tourism i'm not sure it's industry has ever been up to scratch. To be fair though, internal devaluation has been more effective for Spain but then it has first world infrastructure and probably other advantages.. Warren Buffet describes Spain as.. "the bargain of the century".

    I do fear Syriza after not getting more than a small bone will claim success for the turnaround which is already slowly showing its hand.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Clearly at minimum our understanding of what is going on in the world needs de-confusing, we need to strip out the views of neoliberals who clearly have a vested interest in selling a false version of reality.

    The next step is to create a new economics which takes into account the Global Commons, currently being mercilessly exploited, strip-mined and destroyed for short term profits and the real needs of human beings. If you want to attempt to smear that by comparing it with past failed models of state sovietism, feel free.
    My personal opinion (increasingly so since studying Economics) is that we need to get away from thinking that one ideology is right or wrong. Clearly Keynes and his fiscal multipliers are relevant in an austerity environment (that is to say that spending cuts can occur but capital spending should increase). The Austrians have brilliant ideas (though the idea of regulation tending to be bad is a kind of economics without thinking of people idea).

    Right now though, nobody has yet come up with a credible complete economic theory to cover all.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    gains a clear win.

    Owen Jones writes brilliantly about it. This was a victory of hope against the lies of the post-cold war 'consensus' that only neoliberal capitalism can solve our problems and the lie that we have to destroy our public services, the incomes of more than half the population and the lifestyles we've been used to, because capitalism demands it.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-cynicism-hope

    Syriza's victory in Greece should be a role model for us here in the UK. We do not need to accept the Tory/neoliberal/New Labour line that there is no alternative to massive cuts in public services.
    You are deluded and have no idea about you are speaking. Greeces public service is oweload with employes who are receiving salary without going to work. it has resulted in creating corruption and to high taxes.
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    (Original post by zgb1)
    You are deluded and have no idea about you are speaking. Greeces public service is oweload with employes who are receiving salary without going to work. it has resulted in creating corruption and to high taxes.
    Greece has borrowed too much, but why was this allowed? The international banks knew that the EU would underwrite their debts. Goldman Sachs gave their economy a clean bill of health immediately before they plunged into crisis. It's certainly true that the Greek government overstretched and that there has been very bad corruption, but why then were they added to the Euro in the first place?

    I wasn't saying Greece is perfect, but the policy of severe austerity has been an absolute disaster and is not helping.
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    I'm from Greece and extremely happy and proud for Syriza! It's a victory against austerity. Noam Chomsky, Tariq Ali, Oliver Stone, Elio Di Rupo, Judith Butler, Slavoj Zizek among others support Syriza. Even Reza Moghadam said that the Greek debt must be cut by 50% and admitted that IMF has made mistakes regarding Greece, even if he was one of those who made Greece the way it is today. It's high time for some ''leaders'' like him to admit their mistakes. People of Greece demand their dignity and justice back.
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    For anyone that has an interest in video games the current finance minister of Greece was an economist that worked for Valve.

    http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    For anyone that has an interest in video games the current finance minister of Greece was an economist that worked for Valve.

    http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/
    Nice link! Varoufakis is an incredibly intelligent and gifted man. Did you watch what happened today with Dijsselbloem? He nailed it :cool:
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    In their 48 hours in office Syriza have reintroduced the minimum wage, reinstated pensions, reintroduced collective bargaining in the workplace, granted children born in Greece to migrants Greek citizenship, rehired public sector workers who had lost their jobs and stopped privitsation plans that were in progress. Not bad for two days work.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Basically neoliberal theory is dead and can be considered worthless. Ditto most of the current politicians who were versed in it.
    Which is fine, but how will Greece pay for it?

    Raise tax?
    Default?
    Borrow more?

    Or is there an option I can't think of?

    Edit
    Go back to the Drachma, devalue and possibly print money?
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    In their 48 hours in office Syriza have reintroduced the minimum wage,
    Haven't they proposed to gradually raise it? They already had a minimum wage...
 
 
 
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