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    (Original post by Native To Europe)
    I do not support European immigration because of geography. I support European immigration because I view them as our kin and they share similar values and culture, history and so on and on.

    And I do not support Albanian Muslim immigration or roma gypsy immigration; you are quite correct.
    However Eastern Europe is Catholic or Orthodox Christian, they aren't Protestants. Eastern Europeans don't speak English. They live in a different environment to Britain. We don't care the same culture at all.

    So you support immigration from specific parts of Europe then? Not all of Europe.
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    I think this is great fun reading all these posts from people trying to make out that they aren't basing their views on race. Yet when I ask them question their whole views comes down to race.

    I wish these people would just accept what they want, so people like me can think of way to enact what they want. Instead people keep trying to be politically correct and not put across what they actually seek.
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    (Original post by william walker)
    Really you would want hundreds of thousands of Korean's, coastal Chinese and Japanese moving you Britain every year? Parts of Africa and the Caribbean are part of the Anglosphere or English speaking world. Yet you just said they are less preferable.

    Oh so you want British citizenship to be devalued to nothing more than an economic transaction. Also that would be dependent upon the government, their would be no oversights of that. It would be abused, citizenship should not be for sale.
    That would not concern me, these people are generally free of religious baggage. When I speak of the Anglosphere I mean Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the US rather than the wider Commonwealth.

    Why do you want immigration if not for some kind of economic advantage gained, this just removes a tonne of beaurocracy. Why should it not be for sale with a few constraints.
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    (Original post by william walker)
    However Eastern Europe is Catholic or Orthodox Christian, they aren't Protestants. Eastern Europeans don't speak English. They live in a different environment to Britain. We don't care the same culture at all.

    So you support immigration from specific parts of Europe then? Not all of Europe.
    The fact they are Catholic or Orthodox does not concern me. They are my kin, I regard being European as being part of a distinct group of people and i believe we share a European identity. We are so much more closer to Eastern Europeans than Non Europeans so thats your answer there
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    "First off can the people who don't support mass immigration and want to cut the numbers just admit that the issue is the sort of people who are immigrating to Britain and not the numbers. If all the people coming to Britain were white English speakers from Australia, Canada and American they would have no issue with immigration at this level. "


    well obviously, our way of life is important
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    (Original post by Native To Europe)
    The fact they are Catholic or Orthodox does not concern me. They are my kin, I regard being European as being part of a distinct group of people and i believe we share a European identity. We are so much more closer to Eastern Europeans than Non Europeans so thats your answer there
    This is a very modern view which largely comes from America where white people don't have a strong national/ethnic identity, since white Americans come from a variety of European backgrounds and have been pushed together. Its not really how things have traditionally been viewed in Europe, where nationality was always a core component of ethnic identity.

    Noone in Europe before 1960 or so would have believed there was an overarching "white European" identity - countries like Britain/Germany/France were always highly nationalist and believed they were fundamentally different from each other in an ethnic sense. There was belief in a clear "French" character, a clear "British" character, and so on. Also Spaniards and south Italians weren't always traditionally viewed as being white (many early racial theories clasified Italians as basically Africans, and the French had a saying "Africa begins at the Pyrenees"). Slavs were traditionally viewed as being a separate ethnic group altogether (Hitler certainly didnt put them in the same category as the Nordics), and even Irish people werent really viewed as "white" as recently as a century ago.

    Basically, the idea that an English person is going to get on with a Pole just because they have white skin is pretty ridiculous, and would have been considered ridiculous at most points in European history, even before the modern attempts at making a post-racial society. Also most peoplle in the UK clearly dont agree with you, since there is obvious friction between Eastern Europeans and Brits, rather than some kind of shared feeling of white brotherhood
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    (Original post by poohat)
    This is a very modern view which largely comes from America where white people don't have a strong national/ethnic identity, since white Americans come from a variety of European backgrounds and have been pushed together. Its not really how things have traditionally been viewed in Europe, where nationality was always a core component of ethnic identity.

    Noone in Europe before 1960 or so would have believed there was an overarching "white European" identity - countries like Britain/Germany/France were always highly nationalist and believed they were fundamentally different from each other in an ethnic sense. There was belief in a clear "French" character, a clear "British" character, and so on. Also Spaniards and south Italians weren't always traditionally viewed as being white (many early racial theories clasified Italians as basically Africans, and the French had a saying "Africa begins at the Pyrenees"). Slavs were traditionally viewed as being a separate ethnic group altogether (Hitler certainly didnt put them in the same category as the Nordics), and even Irish people werent really viewed as "white" as recently as a century ago.

    Basically, the idea that an English person is going to get on with a Pole just because they have white skin is pretty ridiculous, and would have been considered ridiculous at most points in European history, even before the modern attempts at making a post-racial society. Also most peoplle in the UK clearly dont agree with you, since there is obvious friction between Eastern Europeans and Brits, rather than some kind of shared feeling of white brotherhood
    you do not speak for the majority of the British people; on the contrary I could say that most of the British people do not agree with you ( see how that works ).

    I believe that British people identify themselves more with a pole than a non European; that is my opinion just as your post is based on your opinion ( see how that works )

    As for you history lesson on European perception of identity before the 1960s that is all very interesting and has nothing to do with the point I put forward.
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    (Original post by Native To Europe)
    you do not speak for the majority of the British people; on the contrary I could say that most of the British people do not agree with you ( see how that works ).

    I believe that British people identify themselves more with a pole than a non European; that is my opinion just as your post is based on your opinion ( see how that works )

    As for you history lesson on European perception of identity before the 1960s that is all very interesting and has nothing to do with the point I put forward.
    Its not 'opinion' that many/most British people are uncomfortable about mass Eastern European immigration, and I dont see how you could think otherwise. There has been a substantial backlash against Poles and Romanians over the last few years, in a way that would never exist for (eg) American/Australian (or even German/French) immigration, since these people are usually seen as being much closer to Brits than Romanians are.

    Yes, people might feel they have more in common with the average Pole than with the average African or Pakistani but that doesnt mean they want mass immigration of Poles into the country. "If I had to choose, then I would prefer X over Y" does not mean "I want X"
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    (Original post by poohat)
    This is a very modern view which largely comes from America where white people don't have a strong national/ethnic identity, since white Americans come from a variety of European backgrounds and have been pushed together. Its not really how things have traditionally been viewed in Europe, where nationality was always a core component of ethnic identity.

    Noone in Europe before 1960 or so would have believed there was an overarching "white European" identity - countries like Britain/Germany/France were always highly nationalist and believed they were fundamentally different from each other in an ethnic sense. There was belief in a clear "French" character, a clear "British" character, and so on. Also Spaniards and south Italians weren't always traditionally viewed as being white (many early racial theories clasified Italians as basically Africans, and the French had a saying "Africa begins at the Pyrenees"). Slavs were traditionally viewed as being a separate ethnic group altogether (Hitler certainly didnt put them in the same category as the Nordics), and even Irish people werent really viewed as "white" as recently as a century ago.

    Basically, the idea that an English person is going to get on with a Pole just because they have white skin is pretty ridiculous, and would have been considered ridiculous at most points in European history, even before the modern attempts at making a post-racial society. Also most peoplle in the UK clearly dont agree with you, since there is obvious friction between Eastern Europeans and Brits, rather than some kind of shared feeling of white brotherhood
    I agree with this. The attempt to get rid of nationalism has been put forward by the Americans as an attempt to weaken nations within Europe. Stop them ever challenging American power. With the EU and NATO being created to constrain the British, French, Germans and Russians the main threats to American power in Europe.

    Many plonkers think the EU is the answer to challenging the US, however the EU works perfectly for the US needs. Either the EU is strong so the US has less troops in Europe and economic growth, or the EU is weak to the US has more troops their and trades with Asia. However the US knows that no military challenge will ever come from the EU, such a Union would be a land based power and not naval based. However imagine an independent Britain or France, then having to compete against each other and Germany and Russia, maybe Turkey, Spain and Italy. If that happens the US has problems, big problems.
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    (Original post by william walker)
    I agree with this. The attempt to get rid of nationalism has been put forward by the Americans as an attempt to weaken nations within Europe. Stop them ever challenging American power. With the EU and NATO being created to constrain the British, French, Germans and Russians the main threats to American power in Europe.
    I think viewing it as a conspiracy is silly. America had to de-ethnicise its white people because it was founded by white people from a variety of European backgrounds, and they all needed to live together. America's solution of playing down ethnicity and instead forging an incredibly strong national identity that isnt linked to race or ethnic background has worked very well for them, but its unlikely that the same is going to work for Europe because the context is totally different. Literally noone in America believes that being a "real American" is linked to race/ancestry/length of time your family has been in the country/etc - as soon as you get citizenship, you are just as American as anyone else. That isnt how most people in Europe view things, at least on an instinctive level.
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    (Original post by Native To Europe)
    I believe that British people identify themselves more with a pole than a non European; that is my opinion just as your post is based on your opinion ( see how that works )
    So do you believe that an Englishman would have more in common with a Pole from Poland, who speaks a different language, has a different culture (though some similarities in your opinion) etc. than a non-European British citizen who has fully integrated and speaks the same language, eats similar food, has similar tastes etc.?
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    If you just say we should favour white immigration, that includes the mis-mash of Eastern European ethnicities, Russians, the French... No, it's clear that having people who are or were of the United Kingdom should be the ones prioritised.

    Bill: what is your opinion on self-determination?
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    (Original post by Native To Europe)
    you do not speak for the majority of the British people; on the contrary I could say that most of the British people do not agree with you ( see how that works ).

    I believe that British people identify themselves more with a pole than a non European; that is my opinion just as your post is based on your opinion ( see how that works )

    As for you history lesson on European perception of identity before the 1960s that is all very interesting and has nothing to do with the point I put forward.
    I have more in common with a Sri Lankan Protestant who's mother married into a Dutch aristocratic family and moved to Britain when he was 6, than I do a Catholic, Russian speaking Polish person who moved to Britain when he was 27.
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    The argument hasn't been about race for at least 30 years.

    EDIT: 5000th post.
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    (Original post by william walker)
    I have more in common with a Sri Lankan Protestant who's mother married into a Dutch aristocratic family and moved to Britain when he was 6, than I do a Catholic, Russian speaking Polish person who moved to Britain when he was 27.

    Good for you
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    (Original post by UncleIroh)
    So do you believe that an Englishman would have more in common with a Pole from Poland, who speaks a different language, has a different culture (though some similarities in your opinion) etc. than a non-European British citizen who has fully integrated and speaks the same language, eats similar food, has similar tastes etc.?
    I feel closer to my European brethern than I do with non europeans born and bred than Britain. I identify more with other European people and share a common identity and kinship that i simply do not share with other non europeans
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    (Original post by poohat)
    Its not 'opinion' that many/most British people are uncomfortable about mass Eastern European immigration, and I dont see how you could think otherwise. There has been a substantial backlash against Poles and Romanians over the last few years, in a way that would never exist for (eg) American/Australian (or even German/French) immigration, since these people are usually seen as being much closer to Brits than Romanians are.

    Yes, people might feel they have more in common with the average Pole than with the average African or Pakistani but that doesnt mean they want mass immigration of Poles into the country. "If I had to choose, then I would prefer X over Y" does not mean "I want X"
    I have never advocated mass immigration from Eastern Europe???
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    (Original post by Native To Europe)
    I feel closer to my European brethern than I do with non europeans born and bred than Britain. I identify more with other European people and share a common identity and kinship that i simply do not share with other non europeans
    Do you actually feel this though, or do you just want to?

    Like, have you ever actually been to Naples or Budapest or Lisbon and thought "yeah these people are just like me! I feel completely at home here!" in the same way that you would in (eg) Amsterdam or Copenhagen?

    It seems pretty obvious to me that North Europeans are quite different to South/East Europeans in terms of national character, temperament, etc.
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    (Original post by Native To Europe)
    I feel closer to my European brethern than I do with non europeans born and bred than Britain. I identify more with other European people and share a common identity and kinship that i simply do not share with other non europeans
    Why? If culture has no bearing then the only difference I can see is ethnicity (don't worry I'm not one to scream racist - I prefer to actually debate these issues).
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    Basing immigration rules on legacy and ancestry seems arbitrary to me. What gives someone whose grandpa was British more of a right to be a part of our society than someone whose grandpa wasn't?

    I say this with no idea of how I would set up rules to determine who could immigrate into a country. I can just recognise a non sequitur​ when I see one.
 
 
 
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